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Dual Wielding Weapons
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Ning Leihrec
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject: Dual Wielding Weapons Reply with quote

Anything in the RAW governing dual wielded weapons? Seems like it would be slightly different than a standard MAP.
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evilnerf
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 2nd ed revised and expanded? no, no rules. REUP has some though
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First thing you would need is to come up with what is the normal penalty for dual wielding/ Is there even an off hand penalty ever mentioned??
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Dual Wielding Weapons Reply with quote

Ning Leihrec wrote:
Anything in the RAW governing dual wielded weapons? Seems like it would be slightly different than a standard MAP.


I've had some commentary on the matter several times in the boards over the years.

Here's a recent reply I've made on the subject from this thread:
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5267&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc

Quote:

Honestly, I've given up on the idea of dual-wielding rules as I've never seen anything that realistically represents the idea of two-handed fighting, and I think that this is just one of those areas of D6 where the mechanics are too "broad brushstroke" to handle what it is really like.

I've had years of experience in the reading and practice of historical swordsmanship. I've got a library of Renaissance and Medieval fighting manuals and I study and practice with a group that meets weekly. In short, I feel confident in speaking about swordplay.

When you learn how to use one handed sword for the first time (and I'll speak in terms of rapiers, as that's what I have most of my experience with), it's awkward. Your brain is trying to map out this new extension of your body mechanics and it's difficult to make it go where you want it to go with any speed and accuracy. With time, your skill develops, and you can maneuver it quickly and accurately. If you're in good practice, you can make every defensive move a simultaneous offensive strike. If you're in REALLY good practice, your lower brain function begins the defensive maneuver before your conscious mind reflects, processes, and is aware of all of the maneuvers. That is to say, your reflexes can be sharper than your thinking.

Okay, so you're really good. Now we just add another weapon. In my case, I prefer to fight with a rapier and dagger. When you first get this new thing in your left hand, your fighting goes to crap. Your brain is still trying to keep the awareness it had developed with the lightning-quick reflexes of your right hand while trying to map out this new device in your left. It's trying to do those jobs at the same time. Sounds like MAPs at the moment, doesn't it? It kind of is. If I had two fighters of the same skill level, and then I suddenly handed one of them a dagger and told them to fight, I'd put my money on the guy WITHOUT the dagger.

The problem with the MAP route, is that with practice, you start to get better with both hands. Your brain maps out the new device, and makes it part of your body and makes it part of the new complex equations. Eventually it TOO becomes reflex. If you work and train hard you basically remove your own MAPs. If you had two guys, both of them with REALLY good training with sword and dagger, and then you give one a sword and dagger and the other just a sword, then my money is going to be on the guy with sword and dagger. Why? The guy with the dagger can defend with his off-hand while striking with the dominant hand or vis versa. Also, let's not forget that the guy can also attack simultaneously

Now let's give the guy who is trained with sword and dagger a brand new rapier to use in the left hand. His fighting is going to drop down again, and perhaps even worse than when he was first handed that nicely balanced off-hand dagger. Heck, I've even got a REALLY well balanced, lighter, shorter rapier to use in my off-hand. And because I've fallen out of practice with it, I've even picked it up to use as a handicap in multi-person fights when I knew I was with people who were marginally less skilled. When I started working back with two rapiers again, one of my teachers said that my problem was that I was using it like a big dagger... which it is not. Granted, if I were to train and train, then I would be more of a risk than I would be with a single rapier or than if I had a rapier and dagger. I could eventually remove the MAPs, and essentially give myself a free defensive action and free offensive action per "tempo" That is to say, in any given segment of time (the time it takes to make a single maneuver), I can defend one more time AND attack one more time than the guy with only one sword.

Basically, if they're REALLY good, they're moving both blades simultaneously, each one may be moving offensively and or defensively at the same time.

That's a mess of mechanics. Honestly, the best way I've been able to think about it is in terms of purchasing a special ability to fight with the off hand with a -2 for both offensive and defensive actions. Then purchasing a better ability after another month's study to get a free defensive action per round when using two weapons for which you have been trained. Then later after more study and more CP investment, gain a free offensive OR defensive action per round when attacking with two weapons with which you are proficient.

The problem is, that sounds way too much like d20 and feat progression for some people.


I've tried things like making dual wielding an advanced skill with some bonuses to using both weapons in the same turn. The problem is that it becomes fundamentally NOT WORTH the cps spent on the skill. When I tried it with a Jedi character, I eventually realized that he was blowing more CPs on his advanced (A) Dual Lightsaber skill than he would on raising his Lightsaber skill to a higher degree that would outstrip the bonuses he was getting from the dual weilding.

Now, splitting the (A) Dual Wielding bonuses between melee and melee parry might offset some of this. But I've not playtested that angle.
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Ning Leihrec
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That all makes sense Cheshire. It does seem like for melee weapons the main advantage would be a simultaneous parry and attack. I'm thinking more along the lines of dual wielded blasters. Seems like doubling up on a blaster attack could feasibly grant a damage bonus in exchange for increased difficulty.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've looked for real-life implications of dual-wielding pistols. What's funny is that I can't even find examples of trick shooters using them simultaneously. I'm guessing that it's one of those things that just nigh impossible to get your mind to track like that over distances.

But in terms of cinematically, it's a great idea. It's done in movies, and it makes some level of sense. Treating it like "fire linked" damage while upping a difficulty sounds like a great house rule.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second that vote.
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Ning Leihrec
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds about right to me. IF you're firing 2 weapons of equal power treat it as +1D damage and +5 diff to hit at point blank range, +10 at short range, and so forth.

Last edited by Ning Leihrec on Sat May 23, 2015 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are several things to consider here in light of Cheshire's post.

By dual wielding, you're blowing through ammo twice as fast. Depending on how generous the GM is with credits (or the availability of ammo), this could create a reasonable trade-off all by itself.

Also, you could rule that to avoid a MAP, both weapons must be used against the same target simultaneously. Selecting a different target for the other gun incurs a MAP as normal (just an example of how you might want to handle it).

I rather favor treating dual wielding like starship weapons, as has already been mentioned above: they are fire-linked. This way it's a damage bonus, rather than two separate hits.

Another option might be to allow the shooter to either gain a bonus to damage or a bonus on the attack roll. It's harder to dodge a high volume of shots, after-all.

As for a trade-off, perhaps dual wielding could be it's own skill, and it might cost one additional character point per pip to raise. Of course, the skill would also be sufficient to wield a single pistol, if the character so desires.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could make duel wield an advanced skill.

You would not ever roll the skill, it would just be a cap on the number of dice you could roll to hit.

For the actual rolls you would need your base skill.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

Another option might be to allow the shooter to either gain a bonus to damage or a bonus on the attack roll. It's harder to dodge a high volume of shots, after-all.

As for a trade-off, perhaps dual wielding could be it's own skill, and it might cost one additional character point per pip to raise. Of course, the skill would also be sufficient to wield a single pistol, if the character so desires.


I can agree with that bonus.. Person dual wielding gets the choice, +1d to hit, OR +1d to damage.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've duel-wielded 9mm autos. Honestly, you can't hit jack doing it. It's absolutely cinematic; in the real world there's no way it would be feasible. Just look at all the cowboy movies. There's always one guy with dual guns in the movies, but in real life you never see a picture of a cowboy with dual guns.

If it really fits the character, I'd say give 'em +1d to hit or to damage.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
If it really fits the character, I'd say give 'em +1d to hit or to damage.


I typically increase the difficulty one rank and add +1D to whichever weapon does the most damage and call it a day. They cannot shoot at different targets in the same action, though the can shoot multiple targets using multiple actions.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
I've duel-wielded 9mm autos. Honestly, you can't hit jack doing it. It's absolutely cinematic; in the real world there's no way it would be feasible. Just look at all the cowboy movies. There's always one guy with dual guns in the movies, but in real life you never see a picture of a cowboy with dual guns.

If it really fits the character, I'd say give 'em +1d to hit or to damage.


Some games do suppressing fire. It would work for that.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a difference between "suppressing fire" and "spray & pray."
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