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Leon The Lion
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Location: Somewhere in Poland
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 Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I'd be interested in seeing your breakdown of how much everything costs in your system, at least how many CPs each pip of starting attribute costs. Are attributes worth the sum of all the skills in them, and if so then what is your skill list? How do you handle new or uncommon skills that come up in the course of the game if all skills default to attributes (meaning, skills that weren't taken into account when the attribute was paid for in character creation)? |
Attributes cost the RAW 10x skill cost (10x the number before D in the code). I already covered this, and some of my reasoning for it, last post. I do not feel it's unbalanced, or at least not in a way that would bother me, because the cost is equal for each character.
Force sensitivity is 15 CP, the first die in any Force skill is 3 CP, and they are paid for as normal skills thereafter, Force powers are 5 CP each, martial arts techniques are 3 CP each.
As for racial special abilities, there's no costs really developed yet, because I haven't needed them yet.
Anyway, I feel like I'm derailing a thread - again. I've already spoken on the main topic, so I'll bow out for now.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: What do you like/dislike about D6 (including WEG D6 Spac |
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| Whill wrote: |
| garhkal wrote: | | Or like sparks handles it, you pay a cost for those aliens who have more stuff.. 1, 2 or 3 of your 21 starting pips. |
I like the spirit behind Spark's system with that, but a lot of species have special abilities way more valuable than 3 pips. |
I agree, which is why if i adopted it for my home games, i would make it a 1D, 2D or 3D race cost.
| Quote: | | It only seems arbitrary because there was no attempt to equate the number of total skills available to allocate skill dice to. In a skill dice allocation system, it doesn't really matter what total number of skills you can possibly allocate skill dice to because you have a definite amount of skill dice to allocate. Once character creation is over and play begins, the unraised skills listed on the template are no different than the skills not listed, game mechanically. Except for advanced skills like Medicine, all skills default to the attribute value, and all skills can be raised with CPs (and experience or training) according to the rules. The skills listed on the template are based on the fluff text for the character concept. But the more skills listed do not equate to more skills for the character. |
Which is why i have had several threads concerning skills you don't have and are just rolling the attributes for. Several other systems also allow it, BUT you get a penalty (or higher difficulty #) when you do that. Heck in white wolf's old 2e and even 2e revised systems, for Knowledge based skills if you did not have the skill, you couldn't even MAKE a default to just the attribute roll. Which is something i have advocated for.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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griff
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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To respond to the original topic, what I first liked about the D6 system was the character creation and the use of skill points for advancement instead of experience points and levels. I thing that I didn't like about the original game was the skill level of the movie characters, they seemed way to powerful. I would have liked to see the movie characters original created stats with a more modest skill advancement. And I know that is nitpicking.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| griff wrote: | | I thing that I didn't like about the original game was the skill level of the movie characters, they seemed way to powerful. I would have liked to see the movie characters original created stats with a more modest skill advancement. And I know that is nitpicking. |
I think that's valid criticism. There was obviously no overall editorial process for stats, including film characters. It's only a nitpick because film character stats are secondary to the D6 system itself. My policy for my game is, no stats are canon.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Not a fan of the unskilled penalty house rule, but to each his own. |
Why shouldn't there be an unskilled penalty?
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Not a fan of the unskilled penalty house rule, but to each his own. |
Why shouldn't there be an unskilled penalty? |
SW has always had skills default to the attribute (not default to the attribute +1 to +5). An unskilled penalty was not RAW until D6 Space. It's a house rule in Star Wars, so anyone who wants to house rule the game should be the one to explain why they are going against RAW, but OK, I'll bite.
In1987, I accepted skills strait defaulting to attributes as an axiom, a fundamental premise of the D6 system.
2e introduced Advanced Skills which do not default to any attribute, but those are only a few skills while almost all skills remained normal attribute-defaulting skills. In my game, I have even house-ruled a handful of normal skills into advanced skill status so I have more skills that don't default than RAW does, but the bulk still default as they always have. In the RAW game, everyone in effect has every non-advanced skill at the ability level of the attribute by default. Skill dice allocation and CP-purchased skill advancement makes skills better than the attribute.
You may view all this answer as "just because" and if so, you're not wrong. In the cinematic reality of my SWU, regular skills defaulting to the attribute is good enough for me. I use a lot of house rules (including using some other ideas from D6 Space), but I just don't see the need for an unskilled penalty. If I don't want a skill to default to the attribute, then I make it an advanced skill. Then some uses of it may have a penalty while others may not even be possible.
If you feel the game should nickle and dime characters with unskilled penalties, then there is nothing wrong with that. Whatever works for you. If you feel unraised skills should not exactly equal the attribute in ability, then the beauty of SW D6 allows you to house rule it without breaking the system.
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jawa1138
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Joined: 09 May 2014
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Location: Norwalk, Ohio
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | It's a house rule in Star Wars, so anyone who wants to house rule the game should be the one to explain why they are going against RAW, but OK, I'll bite.
In my game, I have even house-ruled a handful of normal skills into advanced skill status so I have more skills that don't default than RAW does, but the bulk still default as they always have.
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I do not mean to nitpick, nor do I wish to upset you Whill but isn't changing skills to advanced skill so they do not default and must be purchased at higher cost basically another way to apply a nonskilled penalty or perhaps even more harsh, if the characters do not purchase the advanced skill they have no chance at all to try?
I am trying to decide if nonskilled penalty is something I want to use in my game and the reason is because I think somethings should not be able to be done by everybody. An ewok should not have the abilty at character creation to repair a hyperdrive. It seems to me that by houseruling advanced skills you are essentially doing the same thing. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| jawa1138 wrote: | | I do not mean to nitpick, nor do I wish to upset you Whill |
Thanks, but doing things differently than me in your own game wouldn't upset me. We're just discussing Star Wars D6 here. That's what this board is for, a free exchange of ideas.
| jawa1138 wrote: | | Whill but isn't changing skills to advanced skill so they do not default and must be purchased at higher cost basically another way to apply a nonskilled penalty or perhaps even more harsh, if the characters do not purchase the advanced skill they have no chance at all to try? |
No, there's a big difference. Making a few skills that are not advanced skills in RAW into advanced skills in my game affects only those skills, and equally for all characters. An unskilled penalty affects all skills that any character hasn't raised above the base attribute. Huge difference.
To give examples without going into rationales or details, I have made the three Mechanical capital ship skills, Astrogation, Forgery and Lightsaber into advanced skills because I feel they should be advanced skills. I am actually using the existing game mechanic of advanced skills instead of introducing a new rule.
| jawa1138 wrote: | | I am trying to decide if nonskilled penalty is something I want to use in my game and the reason is because I think somethings should not be able to be done by everybody. An ewok should not have the abilty at character creation to repair a hyperdrive. It seems to me that by houseruling advanced skills you are essentially doing the same thing. |
I think you bring up a valid concern about the D6 system, but I have chosen to address it in a different way. The scale of the attribute/skill system doesn't adequately deal with primitive characters, or at least primitive PCs like the Ewok templates. The stat block for Ewoks and other primitive races try to deal with it by limiting the skills that can be allocated. But that was always unsatisfactory for me because it still seems unbalanced. Realistically, if 2D is the galactic average attribute/skill, then Ewok characters would seem to really only have like 0D+1 Technical and Knowledge, and 0D+2 Mechanical maybe. I do actually stats primitive NPCs like that, and it doesn't really matter exactly what that means mechanically because there is no need to balance NPCs with PCs. But a PC with stats like that is either going to be severely underpowered with respect to the other PCs, or going to have superhuman levels in other attributes to add up to 18D total. That just doesn't work for me. To minimize munchkinism, I don't allow PCs of any species to have any attribute under 2D.
So my simple solution is, no fully primitive PCs. I do allow Ewoks PCs in my game, but part of the character's background must include how the PC left Endor years ago and the character has had time to become more acclimated to galactic technology and civilization. But yeah, it is also true that it is extremely unlikely that any Ewok PC is going to start out with any advanced skills in my game.
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griff
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 1:39 am Post subject: |
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I too let any skill (except advanced) to default to the governing attribute. In my game an ewok would get to roll their full attribute dice even for starship repair, the difficulty for an ewok would be heroic while the same repair would be less difficult for someone with a more modern template.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
So my simple solution is, no fully primitive PCs. I do allow Ewoks PCs in my game, but part of the character's background must include how the PC left Endor years ago and the character has had time to become more acclimated to galactic technology and civilization. But yeah, it is also true that it is extremely unlikely that any Ewok PC is going to start out with any advanced skills in my game. |
I had a GM brainstorm about the polar opposite. The idea was a short campaign oriented around ONLY primitive characters. While the idea sounded initially amusing it wound up being too problem-ridden to actually materialize.
The concept is at least good for a chuckle.
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jawa1138
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| griff wrote: | | I too let any skill (except advanced) to default to the governing attribute. In my game an ewok would get to roll their full attribute dice even for starship repair, the difficulty for an ewok would be heroic while the same repair would be less difficult for someone with a more modern template. |
This occured to me last night after making my last post. As the gm is free to assign any difficulty they wish based on the situation, I think this is the most game appropriate way to handle the situation. Although to be honest you are really just assigning the penalty at the other end of the procedure, but it makes sense that someone who should not know how to do something would have a much harder time succeeding. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| jawa1138 wrote: | | griff wrote: | | I too let any skill (except advanced) to default to the governing attribute. In my game an ewok would get to roll their full attribute dice even for starship repair, the difficulty for an ewok would be heroic while the same repair would be less difficult for someone with a more modern template. |
This occured to me last night after making my last post. As the gm is free to assign any difficulty they wish based on the situation, I think this is the most game appropriate way to handle the situation. Although to be honest you are really just assigning the penalty at the other end of the procedure, but it makes sense that someone who should not know how to do something would have a much harder time succeeding. |
Which is in essence what i am going for with the "unskilled penalty". Looking at the chart for forgery and such, if someone has a bigger knowledge base against you (in the forgery example that is all they check and he has a valid copy of what a proper permit is) they get +16 to THEIR roll. Which is in essence a penalty to YOUR roll.
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griff
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the higher difficulty is just the other side of the penalty coin. But some players may take the higher difficulty easier then having dice taken away from their character. While it may feel that the difficulty is out of reach it feels better then feeling handcuffed. All this may come down to is the attitudes of the players to the rules. Either way an ewok fixing a hyperdrive would have to be waaaaaaay more luck than skill.
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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I was answering the question specifically about the D6 Space rule called Unskilled Penalty that automatically assigns a +1 to +5 difficulty for all unraised skill checks, systematically across the board with the players aware.
I never meant to imply that I don't set the difficulty of skill rolls based on the specific circumstances of the skill check. These adjustments are done behind the GM screen and the player may not even know the exact modifiers/difficulty I am assigning.
However, if you do this for fully primitive characters like the Ewok template with any remote sense of realism, then the primitive PC is going to suffer from the rationale of "primitive character" and constantly have higher difficulties than other characters for a lot of everyday actions in the SW galaxy. So the easy way to minimize this is no fully primitive characters.
Due to the primitive aspect and my own prejudice that there couldn't possibly even exist an 18D Ewok, I used to just not allow Ewoks at all, but when I realized they could be years removed from their primitive life on Endor, I warmed to the idea of having a little furry teddy bear that may dress and act primitive, but as a result they are constantly underestimated. That could be a lot of fun to have in a player group.
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