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Whill
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 Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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My joking misspelling of her name aside, I'm really not trying to hate on her. I'm ok with a master giving his padawan with her personality a nickname like Snips, but I do think a padawan calling her master "Sky Guy" is more than a little ridiculous. Other than that, I don't have any problem with the character herself as far as I have seen.
My problem (as stated ad nauseum) is the Jedi Council even giving Anakin any apprentice at all. Anakin even being allowed to be trained as a Jedi padawan was extremely controversial among the Council. And then after Anakin (1) was plagued by nightmares for a month involving the source of his attachment, (2) defied the Jedi Code and direct orders going to see his mother, (3) had his mother die in his arms, and (4) is responsible for Dooku escaping and gets his arm cut-off, the Council is going to promote him to Jedi Knight a few weeks later and assign him his own padawan at all, let alone only a few days after his promotion to Knight.
During production of Revenge of the Sith, Anakin getting promoted to Jedi Knight about 6 months before RotS takes place in the EU's Clone Wars came directly from Lucas himself. That also made the most sense to him with respect to RotS. But then after his films saga is complete, Lucas gets the idea for a new TV series and creates T-canon (as a level in between G-canon and C-canon) for it so it can disregard EU continuity. That right there is why a lot of EU fans have an issue The Clone Wars. That is only somewhat annoying to me in some cases (like the RotS character Lucas portrayed in RotS now being something other than a Wroonian).
But my real issue is, just like the EU failing its continuity-mission, The Clone Wars effectively overriding film canon, so in practice T-canon is actually superior to G-canon. But here the worst violations came directly from Lucas himself. I have no problem with Lucas retconning himself, but not retconning film canon with something that he says is a lower-level of canon. After a decade making unpopular choices and stubbornly sticking to his vision for the prequels, Lucas almost immediately turns around and pisses on his own film saga (the character of Ahsoka, and Anakin getting an apprentice he never had before was Lucas' own idea). And now, T-canon is officially equated to filmic G-canon, so the new story group canon is officially shattered from the beginning. I feel this is much worse than the EU resulting from the shotgun marriage of the Dark Empire to the Thrawn Trilogy.
But like I said, if Anakin ever having an apprentice is never referenced in the new films, I'll be a lot happier about it. However, at the end of the day, I'm still the lord and master of my own campaign multiverse so I alone determine its canon.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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On Ahsoka, we very much agree, Whill. That, and to me, the illogic of this super-important part of Anakin's life then suddenly receiving no mention in ROTS... I'd like to think that would've warranted a mention if Anakin had really had a padawan. (Which, to me, he clearly didn't as per the films)
On everything else (the prior post), I think there were some crossed communication wires, and I will try to jump in tomorrow to clarify.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:01 am Post subject: |
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I think some of what I was trying to say- especially in regards to the EU-WEG connection- didn't come through clearly, creating disagreements where we actually have none. Hopefully, this will clarify many of them...
| Whill wrote: | | I appreciate honest expression of feelings instead of irrational arguments based on those feelings. And I hope this discussion helps you through the grieving process. |
Slowly but surely, gettin' there. 
| Whill wrote: | | And you say "replacement" although a much better description would be successor. Disney didn't only buy film rights. They bought the entire franchise, including EU material. They will want to start getting a return on that $4 billion investment every way they can. The EU is still a part of the business model. Disney would be throwing away money if it wasn't. |
Let me put it this way. Right now, what happened in, say, stories set 10 years after A New Hope is no longer canon; stories chronicling that time are no longer what actually happened. In future (as I understand the plans) new books or comics will be written, featuring characters and ideas from the ST (albeit backstory for these films) which will tell a new account of what happens 10 years after ANH, featuring young <protagonist from episode VII> and the foundations of <episode VII political/social status quo>, rather than, say, Mara Jade and Borsk Fey'lya or the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant with a Jedi Academy on Yavin IV. Thus, I see it as a replacement. Old stories with old characters being replaced by new stories with new characters for the same time period.
In terms of what is canon to Star Wars- what is the official story- the Legends works are being replaced on the timeline, with the old items remaining still-accessible curiosities and archival material, but no longer relevant to what is canon, official, accepted, or referenced in new Star Wars works. So I mean 'replacement' in that sense- overwritten as a part of the official Star Wars story (which I think is the only thing most people are going to pay any attention to)- not replaced on the bookshelves, but replaced in relevance or relation to the ongoing Star Wars story. (Which then gets back into the Marvel SW/Trek/Who example in terms of how I think such overwritten continuity stories will quickly dwindle into obscurity).
| Whill wrote: |
You seemed concerned that the EU can't be added to any more, but the Thrawn Trilogy, Wraith Squadron series, and WEG material are long over. The newer EU material wasn't adding anything to them, and if you cherish these materials then you already have them in final form without needing the EU to continue them. |
It is, as you suggest below, a multi-faceted thing. The fact that the EU is not being added to is part of the distress... but the lack of appreciation for the old which I foresee coming with 'replacement' (as defined above) is another separate aspect of it. And with such examples as the recent Mercy Kill novel, the stories of these characters and situations were being continued- some of them in distant form (where is so-and-so's story now, 30 years later?), but some more directly. Either way, those characters and their stories are, barring some form of retro-incorporation, over in a way that they weren't... and that's part of why I'd wish them in particular in-continuity... but only part of it. The weaving into the official continuity is- as you reference in the rest of your paragraph- a way of weaving them back in, bringing relevance for new fans... making them a part of the story. Keeping them within the 'society' of those fandom social-interactions I spoke of earlier- a part of what is still being discussed and referenced and relevant.
| Whill wrote: | | Kyle Katarn is extremely popular so I'm sure we haven't see the last of him, and the Thrawn Trilogy is sure to be near the top of the list of guaranteed Legends republications. |
I guess I don't think that just because a book is reprinted and put on the shelf that anyone will have any reason to go and pick it up. Kyle being re-incorporated would, of course, be fantastic, so I can only hope you're right. 
| Whill wrote: | | Also, if they selected certain EU publications to canonize and not others, EU fans would never agree on which ones to keep (and which ones to remain able to be contradicted if need be) so there is no way for EU fans to ever be completely satisfied. It is just simple and fair to just press the reset button on all non-film continuity. |
Well, I think they could've made that arbitrary decision (we're keeping these few and dropping the rest, deal with it) as easily as they could have the current one (we're dropping them all, deal with it)- but yes, I do understand the decision. I wasn't proposing retaining those as an actual course of action, just offering the theoretical musing that I would've been happy with merely retaining them as an example of understanding valuing some parts of the EU and not others. An illustration, not a proposal.
| Whill wrote: | | The reason the publication continuity model changed is to make the new films and franchise publications as good as possible. The reason we are getting new films is because Star Wars changed hands to Mr. Disney. Father Lucas wasn't going to make any new movies. Therefore you wish for (no new movies + never-ending EU) over (new movies + movie-canon publications). I'll take the latter, thank you. But then again I'm one of those Star Wars fans that love the films more than anything else. However the new films won't change my appreciation of the EU novels I like now. |
Well, that gets down to the gist of it, doesn't it? I agree the reason was to make the new films and franchise publications as... well, at least to give them maximum freedom, even if I think an EU-conformed series (which, realistically, never would've happened) could still have been quite good. But that's splitting vocabulary-hairs.
I think here we hit the crux of the wish-it-had-happened-differently; because when you say 'But then again I'm one of those Star Wars fans that love the films more than anything else,' I would mostly agree... if you're talking about three of the films in particular.  I think that has a lot to do with our conflicting optimism/pessimism... if one's perspective is that Star Wars has been 6 great movies, then the chance for a 7th is easily worth chucking the EU for, no questions or regrets.
If, on the other hand, one feels that the last Star Wars film of any quality came out in 1983, and that everything sense has been essentially garbage that failed to capture the essential nature of Star Wars, then the prospect of a new movie is a little more dubious- potentially just one more chance to screw up Star Wars and alter public perception of what a one-great film franchise is or ought to be- then the chance for a new film is not nearly so exciting a prospect, and certainly a chancy one that isn't necessarily going to be (emotionally) worth chucking the 'sure thing' materials you know you do like in favor of.
And that just comes down to personal preference and perspective on the films- truthfully, I haven't been thrilled over the state of Star Wars (films or EU) since about '98. But others mileage varies majorly and makes the equations you quote- (no new movies + never-ending EU) vs. (new movies + movie-canon publications)- take on a very different weight. It all comes down to whether another Star Wars movie, based on the recent state of Star Wars movies, is a thing to be excited about or not. Me, I am... tentatively hopeful, at best, so that certainly colors my feeling son what's being traded in to get it.
| Whill wrote: | | The films always had precedence over the EU. To suddenly expect new films to adhere to the EU makes no sense under Lucas or Disney. |
Right. I don't know if it came across that I disagreed with either of these points; I don't. I agree. Just expressed wishful/wistful desire for a world in which they weren't actually true.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Under official Lucasfilm policy, game stats for any SW game were never EU canon. |
No, but I think backstories, abilities, and characters from them still were, yes? More on this in a minute...
| Whill wrote: | | I can see you really are having a difficult time with this. The SW D6RPG has been officially dead since it ceased publication 16 years ago. However, just like the EU as a whole much more recently, the WEG RPG is still alive for the fans who still cherish it. |
I think these remarks may have been taken in the context of our discussion, Whill- filtered through that. They were meant to respond to a wholly separate comment in which I perceived contempt being shown for the EU and a gladness that it was 'gone.' The point I was attempting to make is that, even though WEG is a 'dead system,' if you're playing it or a fan of it, you're using EU material. The books are filled with names and planets and concepts supplied by the EU, and every module and sourcebook and original concept in them IS an EU work. So, the WEG system (and all Star Wars gaming, really) owes a major debt to the EU, and much of what we take for granted in it (such as the species names I use as an example later) comes from the EU.
That was my only point here... essentially that the EU (a broad body of works across a variety of formats) is linked to the WEG system 100%, and its kinda impossible to play one of the games without using materials from the EU... so the EU does deserve at least some respect in that regard, being foundational to the very thing that we're all here to discuss and play.
| Whill wrote: | | This game is most certainly NOT dependent on the EU. Maybe in your campaigns, but not for all gamers. |
I would differ, as per above. I'm not trying to say that you have to play an official WEG module (I like to), which is an EU story... or introduce Mara Jade and the CSA into your RPG game. But if you say "An Ithorian approaches," you're using something from the EU- something that, even if brought into canon, was still created by the EU. If you visit a planet that you didn't make up yourself that was not visited in the OT, you're using something out of the EU. If you have an ISB agent, you're using something from the EU (though now canon, as per Rebels, which was pretty great!)
To go off on a tangent... I have noticed that it seems like when discussing the EU, when an EU fan says "I love the EU!" he's usually thinking of the Thrawn trilogy, the X-wing books, Dark Forces- the 'awesome' parts of the EU- as if they are the whole EU. Whereas when an EU-detractor says "I hate the EU!" he usually seems to be thinking of Dark Empire, The Crystal Star, the Holiday Special- the not-awesome parts of the EU- as if they're the whole EU.
But really, the EU is so diverse and covers so much, it's like talking about the population of a country. It's like Canada. You probably couldn't say "I love all Canadians!" because I'm sure there's at least one guy whose a Canadian citizen who is a real jerk that you wouldn't like at all. But then, you can't really honestly say "I hate all Canadians!" either, because there are plenty of really nice people that you couldn't bring yourself to hate in amongst that people-group. It's a mixed bag full of good and bad... and in taking such positions, we're just taking a few representative examples and making them iconic of the entire group, which probably isn't really fair on either side.
The sentiment I was hearing was just one that I perceived as the equivalent of saying "I hate all Canadians, good riddance!" while simultaneously saying it on a William Shatner fan message board, and not realizing the disconnect. (If that makes any sense).
WEG uses (names, planets, ideas, political structures, technology, droids, species, characters, etc.) from the EU, and those that it creates on its own *are* EU creations and works. The campaign you run may not be an EU work, but unless you have made up every single alien species, planet, piece of technology, etc. in it, its using something created by the EU... a setup that wouldn't have been possible without works or concepts created by the EU. Hence my plea not to write it off as worthless or never having had any influence or positive effect on Star Wars (which is what I perceived, in essence, being said)... because without it, there would be no WEG system- at least not as we know it- or much of the info that we commonly use in our games.
So, yeah- I'm not saying (as your response to Leo below seems to suggest) that each RPG campaign is an EU story that we write (if anything, it'd be closer to fan-fic), merely that the foundations and elements we use in those games come in large part from the EU. Duros may be canon now (as you note below) but if you mention one in your game, you're using a name that originated from the EU- hence, not good riddance to *all* of it... there's at leas tone tiny piece you've managed to find valuable.
| Whill wrote: |
Some EU fans seem to proceed from an illogical assumption that by Lucasfilm not canonizing the EU, suddenly all the continuity from the entire EU has just been wiped from existence of the new story group continuity. |
To clarify (ugh, that seems like my full-time job right now! ), I don't think that- exactly. Right now, they are more in a state of flux. Any of them COULD be superseded and overwritten with something else if the story group so chooses, because none of them officially 'count' until the story group says so. Now, the liklihood of them choosing to do so is very low... but after the whole Moriban nonsense (and the like) it's not without precedent. To me, none of those names or concepts have changed- they simply *could* change until locked in officially by the story group.
| Whill wrote: | | Duros, Bothans and Gands are very likely still Duros, Bothans and Gands in the new canon until something in the new canon actually renames the species. |
Agreed. But still... both 'likely' and 'until' point to the impermanent nature, which is all I was trying to get at.
| Whill wrote: | | Also, keep in mind that anything that made it into The Clone Wars show is canonized in the new canon. Cade Bane's species is officially Duros. |
Ugh. Cad Bane. Don't get me started on that guy... pretty sure the only reason my one player is playing as a Duros is to get his character as close to Cad Bane as possible.
But fair point. I always forget that I don't know precisely which concepts or names the Clone Wars has, for good or ill, brought to canon.
| Whill wrote: | | Moriban, anyone? |
I'll use this to segue back to The Clone Wars. I can't find the blog now but I read a review of the final story arc of the series on Netflix. Several new contradictions to Revenge of the Sith are described, such as Yoda coming to the conclusion that peace is the only way to win the War... But then he goes to assassinate Palpatine while sending Obi-Wan to kill Anakin in the film.
Yeah... podcasts like Republic Forces Radio have been chronicling such issues for a long time. That's why I had such a hard time getting into the Clone Wars- I liked the EU comics and novels it overwrote and had a tough time there, but I could've looked past that... if the darn thing could keep continuity with the films themselves!
| Whill wrote: | | So I was struggling to reconcile the very premise of the series (Anakin getting promoted to Jedi Knight only one month after getting his @ss handed to him in Attack of the Clones, and then even more preposterously Anakin almost immediately being given a padawan), and then I would go forward from there. I was never really sold, and now that I know that the series ends also contradicting the films, there is really no hope for it ever being in my personal canon. When my son is older, if he is into it maybe I'll go through the series with him then. |
Ditto.
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Leon The Lion
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Well, my own thoughts on Ahsoka are much more in line with this article, so you can see why there can't ever be any agreement between us. 
The continuity errors are no worse, to me, than the ones between the Original and Prequel trilogies, so that's also not an issue.
It's not worth arguing over anyway. We are all masters of our own RPG domains, determining what is and isn't cannon in our games as it pleases us. As long as everybody at the table is having fun, the agreement or lack thereof of some stranger on the internet is immaterial.
Also, I recognize my own view of Snips is heavily colored by her being, species aside, almost a dead ringer for Rika Dinalt, my own Jedi Knight character's Padawan in my first ever SW game (and the only one I got to be a player instead of GM, alas). The whole game was good on all it's other merits, but that NPC made it the best game I ever had a pleasure participating in. Thinking about it, it's kind of scary how much I cared about that girl, seeing as she was an imaginary person portrayed by my male GM. Rika made me feel kind of how I imagine a father, or at least older brother, feels, and it was honestly wonderful. And every time Ahsoka comes on screen, she reminds me of this feeling, and the great time I had in that game. That's why I can never say a bad word about her, and have a instinctive negative reaction towards anybody who does.
But now I feel like I'm derailing the thread with my waxing lyrical. Sorry.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: | | The continuity errors are no worse, to me, than the ones between the Original and Prequel trilogies, so that's also not an issue. |
Precisely. Whereas from a certain point of view, that's precisely why they're both equally condemnable as opposed to equally acceptable.
| Leon The Lion wrote: | | But now I feel like I'm derailing the thread with my waxing lyrical. Sorry. |
Yeah, because I've in no way been doing that for the last three pages. Wax away, my friend- that's what the boards are here for!
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:49 pm Post subject: The Star Wars Multiverse |
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Zarm R'keeg, I can say I am glad that it's you lamenting over the EU. I've enjoyed this discussion. Let's put it this way...
Years ago, Lucas used to describe the Star Wars Multiverse on occasion.
(1) There is his universe based on the films (Lucas later included TCW with this)
(2) There is the Expanded Universe based on publishing
(3) There is each fan's universe
Of course now things have changed. Lucas sold 1 and 2 to Disney. While it is true Universe #2 is no longer expanding, it is being left as-s.
You used the word overwritten, when nothing like that is happening. They are NOT retconning the EU. There is no "Crisis in the Expanded Universe" story where someone travels back in time and changes the continuity of the EU, effectively "overwriting" the history you know and love with different events. There is no "Last Days of the Expanded Universe" story where the Whills determine the universe no longer deserves to exist so decide to destroy the EU, blasting it from the face of the multiverse.
Universe #2 still exists. The EU's post-RotJ timeline still happened and is not being overwritten. The universe resulting from the continuity of the new Story Group canon is actually an expansion of Universe #1. The film universe is the one that is now expanding with new films and new publishing, but Universe #1 and #2 both still exist, side-by-side. The EU is the universe that is actually NOT changing.
And even if the Universe #2 was completely altered or destroyed, that would have no effect on all of our individual fan universes (the millions of #3 universes in existence). Saying good riddance to the EU doesn't necessary mean I light my Star Wars bookshelves on fire. In my Star Wars universe, I am free to use anything from the films and EU I want irrespective to current status of the EU itself.
As a GM, my campaign universes are parallel universes to the EU and film universe. Some things from the EU exist (like a lot of the WEG material for example) in nearly identical form, some things are significantly altered from the EU, and many things from the EU do not exist in my world at all in any form. When I say "Screw the EU" that is not bashing the elements of the EU that exist in my worlds. I am only disparaging Universe #2 as a whole, which has no effect on my multiverse (#3s). I will continue to pick and choose elements of Universes #1 and #2 to exist in my worlds and disregard the rest.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Well, I think we will have to agree to disagree on that; I'm not sure where the disconnect is happening, but I strongly disagree on both concepts. If story group is going to be publishing new stories that take place at 10 ABY that are what 'actually' happens and a new movie that keeps continuity with those events while ignoring those that occurred in 10 ABY in the EU, which no longer 'don't actually happen,' then there is no way whatsoever that this is not a replacement, from my POV. Crisis on Infinite Earths was nothing more than an in-universe story to say 'that stuff no longer happened, this stuff will instead.' In this case, that declaration is being made outside of the narrative structure, but it is still being made. The EU still exists, but not with any connection to anything other than itself. As a sealed, closed system that is no longer an extension of #1, it has ceased to have any connection to the mainstream Star Wars universe. In essence, a glorified 'what if.' It's not being retconned away, but it's being removed from the chain of events tied to #1, which to me removes it from all relevance. It is a thing that happens by itself, but with no more relevance to the actual Star Wars universe that one of the infinities comics.
That's probably where we disagree- it seems like you consider this disconnected limbo-existence to still be a form of continuing- whereas, deprived of any connection to actually being an extension of the films or an official continuation of their events, with alternate events being supplied to fill those roles, I do not. The works still exist in the real world, but they have no meaning to the actual timeline of Star Wars any longer; the one that springs from the films. The 'actual history,' if you will. For me, the fact that they have been removed from there and that new stories will tell the 'actual history' instead equals a replacement. It still exists as a series of things that will be published, but no one will be looking to it anymore if they want to find out 'what happens after the movies?' they will be looking to something else that tells stories with different characters set in the same time period that will say 'story group canon, this is what happens after Return of the Jedi!' To me, that's the epitome of replacement- in the actual 'one timeline' that springs from the films and ties into the new ones, and in the public eye.
Likewise, I think we're at an impasse over this good riddance business. I can't really- see, any word I can think of like 'condone' or 'agree with' comes off too strong for a simple inability to reconcile viewpoints- any kind of a stance that says 'Screw this thing except for the bits I cherry-pick.' If one has found stuff worth keeping, I kinda feel like one has lost their right to disparage or entirely write off. And I think acknowledgement of the massive impact and contributions on Star Wars as a whole and the universe that we all use generally precludes anyone having a solid stance in bashing it- but clearly, that's just the way that I see respect and appreciation (plus the quality I inherently see in the EU that baffles and frustrates me to see so absent in the viewpoints of others; you never want to see someone hating on what you love. But Lord knows I've done it often enough with the prequels and Clone Wars myself...).
Again, I think these both just come down to a fundamental difference in worldview- we both agree on the 'facts' of the continuity and the circumstances of canon and of the franchise and the like... but based on our POV, those facts simply mean different things or have different significances.
But hey- at least we can both agree, I think, that Star Wars is a great franchise, that there are things we both love and are passionate about in it, that it springs from a great set of movies, and that new movies that are great and maintain the quality we've come to expect from Star Wars would be a VERY good thing!
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I think of these two perspectives, I think Zarm has got it right here. Factually, Whill is correct. But that's just looking at it abstractly. In the real world, the vast majority of fans (or people who interact with the SW franchise) will not have any clue about the nitty-gritty trivia of canon.
And labeling 1,2, and 3 sort of worked before (in the wonky way that Lucasfilm mandated different 'levels' of canon), but doesn't anymore. Going forward, there's really two levels of canon: What the storygroup mandates as "actual" canon, and everything else (which falls more into the "fan" category, or under the "Legends" banner). In other words, there's what "actually happened" (from their perspective) and everything else (that even by it's title, is more like the "mythology" the 'real stuff' is based on).
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | The EU still exists, but not with any connection to anything other than itself. As a sealed, closed system that is no longer an extension of #1, it has ceased to have any connection to the mainstream Star Wars universe. In essence, a glorified 'what if.' It's not being retconned away, but it's being removed from the chain of events tied to #1, which to me removes it from all relevance. It is a thing that happens by itself, but with no more relevance to the actual Star Wars universe that one of the infinities comics.
That's probably where we disagree- it seems like you consider this disconnected limbo-existence to still be a form of continuing- whereas, deprived of any connection to actually being an extension of the films or an official continuation of their events, with alternate events being supplied to fill those roles, I do not. The works still exist in the real world, but they have no meaning to the actual timeline of Star Wars any longer; the one that springs from the films. The 'actual history,' if you will. For me, the fact that they have been removed from there and that new stories will tell the 'actual history' instead equals a replacement. It still exists as a series of things that will be published, but no one will be looking to it anymore if they want to find out 'what happens after the movies?' they will be looking to something else that tells stories with different characters set in the same time period that will say 'story group canon, this is what happens after Return of the Jedi!' To me, that's the epitome of replacement- in the actual 'one timeline' that springs from the films and ties into the new ones, and in the public eye. |
As Zarm R'Keeg posted, now all the other stuff will be more like a "What If" comic, or have the same status as those Infinities stories. Like the one that just came out that based everything on Lucas' original scripts. That doesn't reflect just "some parallel universe". It represents a fantasy story (even within the world of SW) that is more of a "What If This Happened?" type story.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Likewise, I think we're at an impasse over this good riddance business. I can't really- see, any word I can think of like 'condone' or 'agree with' comes off too strong for a simple inability to reconcile viewpoints- any kind of a stance that says 'Screw this thing except for the bits I cherry-pick.' If one has found stuff worth keeping, I kinda feel like one has lost their right to disparage or entirely write off. And I think acknowledgement of the massive impact and contributions on Star Wars as a whole and the universe that we all use generally precludes anyone having a solid stance in bashing it- but clearly, that's just the way that I see respect and appreciation (plus the quality I inherently see in the EU that baffles and frustrates me to see so absent in the viewpoints of others; you never want to see someone hating on what you love. But Lord knows I've done it often enough with the prequels and Clone Wars myself...). |
While I'm not saying "good riddance" for all of it, it's still my personal opinion that the vast majority of it was garbage. I realize this is all subjective, but to me the Prequels were better (by a magnitude of a few thousand times!) than the Marvel comics with a big green bunny running around with Han and Chewie (no offense, Zarm). I cringed and would have felt extremely embarrassed, had somebody seen me reading one of those, even when I was a 12 year old kid (back in '77). Nowadays, I have the luxury of simply ignoring that as something ridiculous that never was seen as actual canon. Still, there's a ton of good in there, too. Tons of "fleshing out" that got done (like by WEG). For the most part, I'd be surprised to see very much of this done away with. I very solidly expect that the story group will not reinvent the wheel and come up with new names for Snivvians, Talz, or Ithorians.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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No offense taken. I cringe the same way at most of the dialogue and acting in the prequels. Obviously, I see more good than bad- but in the end, it is a very personal distinction between quality and crap; what is hallowed to some is garbage to others (just ask the Ugor!), and what it is unthinkable NOT to like for one man is... well, not liked by the next. It's sad to me that I seem to be the only one here that actually likes the EU- this is what I expect fandom to be like in 5 years, but not already- and I do still find it bizarre that these are the feelings on a SW D6 board of all places (it still feels like a Doctor Who fan forum where everyone hates television made in England or something )... but what doesn't connect with you doesn't connect with you, no matter who says it 'should' or what reasons they give why.
Like I said, I can't throw stones- I certainly have my 'good riddance' areas, too. I would argue why the EU shouldn't be one of them- but then, others would argue the same for the things I dismiss. It's all down to personal taste.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, it really does come down to personal taste.
As far as dialogue, as I've grown older I'm more aware (certainly more aware than I was as a kid/teen) how bad some of the dialogue is in the OT, too. TESB is hailed by many to be the best of the series, yet I find myself nearly cringing at some of the corny lines in that film. But I still love all of the films, so overall these are pretty minor nitpicks of great movies.
As far as helping you understand how fans here (of the RPG) could be critical of the EU - allow me to explain a little:
Over the years I've had friends tell me stuff that's happened in the various books and comics. We've all heard of Dark Empire. I've been told how IG-88 (or another version of him, or the like) went crazy and went around the Death Star, blowing away everything that moved, until he was the only one there (or something to that effect). And I've seen in various sourcebooks (in general, as well as for the RPG) about some sort of gigantic star killing ship. Those are the kind of things (in addition to the horrid Marvel comics) that makes me go "Urghhh" and not mind that they're doing some (significant) pruning to the brand.
Now, how can I (generally) dislike much of the EU, while also loving the RPG? Simple. All I really need with the RPG is the basic rules and the movies. Sure it's handy to have stats for alien species and ships and what-not quantified and clarified. But I don't need the vast majority of that stuff to play around in the sandbox that is Star Wars! My characters have visited places like Ryloth and Malastare, and I've gleaned lots of good info from RPG sources (like WotC's Outer Rim sourcebook) as well as Wookieepedia. But had those things never been produced, I could have made up some planet that was the homeworld for the Twi'leks. I could have mocked up some creature instead of getting stats online for a lylek. My players don't have some huge attachment to the EU stuff, so
as long as they're running around with lightsabers and blasters, flying the stars in freighters or Y-wings, blasting TIEs and jumping to hyperspeed, it's all good! We can do all of that without anything that qualifies as "EU". Does that make a little more sense?
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strongarm85
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Some Episode VII rumors (potential spoilers)
-Movie Spoilers-
So apparently the start of the Episode VII begins on desert planet (not Tatooine) at the sight of an old battlefield between Rebels and the Empire. There are AT-ATs have been toppled over with burried under rock and sand from the canyon. Nature has begun to reclaim the battlefield, and nestled in the middle of these downed walkers, a tiny village exists that's uses the insides of these downed AT-AT walkers as shelter. There are also several downed TIE fighters of various makes, and some AT-STs that are burred up to their heads in rubble.
The description perfectly matches the site of the Rebel Base in the FFG adventure Onslaught on Arda I. Assuming the PCs are successful, everything about this battle site matches perfectly with way the battle unfolds on Arda I.
- Onslaught at Arda I Spoilers-
Key thing is, there was a base here. Not only are the PCs in charge of setting off the charges blow up the side of the canyon, that buries the walker. As the Rebels are leaving the PCs are tasked with setting the base's main reactor to overload and take as many of the Imps out with the base as possible. The reactor exploding causes underground base to collapse in on itself. So the only standing structures would be the shells of those old AT-ATs. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:02 am Post subject: re: Palpatine |
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So Palpatine officially has a first name in Story Group Canon, Sheev. Supposedly it was supplied by Lucas, even though his publication franchise was not allowed to name Palpatine for some reason and James Luceno even contrived that Palpatine has stopped using his first name in his teens to spite his father. But now in Tarkin (Luceno's first Story Group Canon novel), Tarkin supposedly addresses Emperor Palpatine by this first name (so they must be best buds on a first name basis).
I'm not a fan of it, but Palpatine's name is not really important in the grand scheme of things. Just thought I'd mention it.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for mentioning it, Whill. I otherwise likely would have never known.
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Hmmmmm. Well, I guess I'm the voice of the pessimist, as usual. That is a bit disappointing; having the entirety of the post-ROTJ EU replaced by essentially a tie-in event, simillar to Star Trek's 'countdown comics.' I hope it'll still be good, but... it kind of feels wrong to replace a decade's worth of publishing to a single event tie-in/lead-up (especially because, as such comic prequels have often shown, the stories tend not to have strong identities of their own, or be able to capture the tone of the products to come, because they're being made on pre-release info).
This is definitely NOT what I'd like to have seen. I'd rather see those years being filled in by stories written on their own merit, piece by piece, rather than being treated as a sort of throw-away single-block to be merchandized revolving around the new film. And maybe that isn't what's actually happening; wouldn't be the first time I've over-reacted. It just feels like a disrespectful way to handle the new EU, undervaluing what a lot of people treasured, and replacing it in a perfunctory, haphazard way. Maybe it isn't; maybe they won't do it that way. But, first announcement, that's how it feels- alienating to EU fans who are willing to see the era replaced, but want to see it done with care, detail, and strong storytelling, not a marketing filler. (Which hopefully, the EU-less-than-enthusiasts who saw all of that as absent in the EU would want to see built into this one, too).
Hopefully, it will be that good. Hopefully, these authors working in secret still came up with some strong stories. I'll certainly check them out-
The other possible issue is treating the era as a rush-job prologue to a single film- which, much like those TPM tie-in comics about various members of the Jedi Council that ended up meshing badly with the ongoing films, feeling limited in scope, and being badly dated by all tying in to characters and scenarios exclusive to the first film that had no relevance for the latter films, felt like this weird little cul-de-sac of irrelevance made before the direction of the new series was actually determined, seems like it's rife with potential to be largely throw-away. Remember all those video-games and magazines and everything that treated Naboo Starfighters as major pieces of the universe, or put Malastare, Naboo, and Tatooine in repeated, prominent positions as if they were cornerstones of the universe, just because they were name-dropped in TPM? And how silly & irrelevant, or at the very least, badly dated, those things feel now, knowing that these elements were mentioned/prominent in just the Phantom Menace, and didn't really play a larger role in the tapestry of the prequels as a whole?
Again, hopefully this is a pitfall they've avoided. It's just disappointing to see the possibility for that same problem seeded all throughout the 'new EU' by this all-at-once, before-anyone's-even-seen-the-movie approach.
Either way, with any luck, they'll still leave significant gaps that can be filled in with more considered, benefit-of-retrospect, stand-on-their-own-and-not-as-a-tie-in stories. And, with any luck, the ones they do produce will have more depth, story quality, stand-alone value, and relevance than similar products for Star Wars, Star Trek, the Superman films have in the past.
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