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Giftoffury
Cadet
Joined: 05 Mar 2015
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 Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject: Starship Crew Damage |
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Greetings all
I have been wondering if any of you use an alternate damage system for crew damage? I have been thinking about a few ideas for a system to calculate crew damage for capital scale ships, this would encompassed ships with crews from 100 for let's say a Gunship to even ISD crew size i.e 36,000 + crew.
The system would need to calculate the average damage for ship crews when their ships take light, heavy or serious damage, any ideas??
Thanks guys. |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2269
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome to the Pit, Giftoffury!
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:17 am Post subject: |
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I have put some thought into this, as it makes sense, and is certainly more accurate than the existing crew rules. Warhammer 40K uses something similar for its Battlefleet Gothic space navy combat system, where ships are assigned hit points based on ship class that represent crew strength, and only critical hits truly affected ship systems.
I haven't come up with a system to represent this that works for me. What I'd like is a system that increases the base difficulty for any actions the ship makes, in direct proportion to the casualties taken. A likely source to generate a ship's "crew points" could be D6 Space's damage points system. Just as an example, suppose a ship takes a hit for 5 points of crew damage. As such, the ship is at +5 difficulty for all actions for the rest of the round. At the beginning of the next round, the difficulty decreases to +4, as some of the crew pick themselves up and return to their stations. Once the battle is over, and repairs are begun, the difficulty decreases to +3, as some of the injured crew are treated and returned to duty, or freed from damaged sections of the ship where they were trapped. The final +2 difficulty, however, represents crew who are either dead or too injured to return to duty without extended medical care. As such, the +2 penalty remains until replacement crew can be brought in.
This is just a bare-bones concept I've been considering for a while. Any thing you can add would be appreciated.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:51 am Post subject: |
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You could also segregate it into crew sections.. Did the bridge or engineering get hit. Was it a hit on the port or starboard weapons?
Then look at how much crew each "section" should have (say 50% more than what is listed for gunners, ie) and each wound level takes say 20% of that crew out of action.
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Theodrim
Lieutenant
Joined: 18 May 2014
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| I usually just narrate it out (as I do any combat scene involving capital ships), since something like that is so complex and subject to circumstance it's nigh impossible to adjudicate by rules. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | You could also segregate it into crew sections.. Did the bridge or engineering get hit. Was it a hit on the port or starboard weapons?
Then look at how much crew each "section" should have (say 50% more than what is listed for gunners, ie) and each wound level takes say 20% of that crew out of action. |
This sounds great in principle, but just ends up producing a lot of work. If nothing else, we have no idea what percentage of the crew is assigned to which duties.
After consideration, I think we already have a system in the RAW that could account for this. When a character is Wounded, they take dice penalties to any subsequent actions, based on the degree of the injury. However, this is not the case with starships, who continue rolling the same Hull regardless of the level of damage inflicted.
Perhaps, to represent crew out of action, damage to the ship could also assess a temporary penalty to Crew Skills. There would be a high initial penalty for the first round, then a slight reduction for crew that were knocked about to return to their stations and get back to work, with final penalty tabulation assessed after the battle.
For example, suppose a Nebulon B takes Heavy Damage. In addition to the damage itself, it is assessed a -2D penalty to all skill rolls for the remainder of the round (and possibly all of the next, just to give it some added weight). At the beginning of the following round, that penalty is reduced to -1D, representing that some of the crew are still out of action due to injury or being trapped in damaged sections.
Once the battle is over, the ship can make a tally of permanent and temporary crew losses, which can then be applied to the existing crew totals.
I'm going to work up a chart to represent this, but I don't have anything quite yet...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Theodrim wrote: | | I usually just narrate it out (as I do any combat scene involving capital ships), since something like that is so complex and subject to circumstance it's nigh impossible to adjudicate by rules. |
For most campaigns, this is the way to go. However, running a pirate or privateer campaign with a capital ship (such as with the Far Orbit Project), a firmer rule would not be amiss.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Starship Crew Damage |
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| Giftoffury wrote: | Greetings all
I have been wondering if any of you use an alternate damage system for crew damage? I have been thinking about a few ideas for a system to calculate crew damage for capital scale ships, this would encompassed ships with crews from 100 for let's say a Gunship to even ISD crew size i.e 36,000 + crew.
The system would need to calculate the average damage for ship crews when their ships take light, heavy or serious damage, any ideas??
Thanks guys. |
Oh, and welcome to the Pit.
We've tackled this concept in part in the past, here and here. We never reached any conclusions on crew casualties, but these two topics provide the basis for my thinking on the matter, at least.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Theodrim wrote: | | I usually just narrate it out (as I do any combat scene involving capital ships), since something like that is so complex and subject to circumstance it's nigh impossible to adjudicate by rules. |
For most campaigns, this is the way to go. However, running a pirate or privateer campaign with a capital ship (such as with the Far Orbit Project), a firmer rule would not be amiss. |
I agree, having damage equate to crew fatalities is an important part of the weight of command.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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There actually is precedent for it under the RAW. On the starship damage charts, when a ship's weapons are damaged, the gunners take damage on the Passenger Damage chart, according to how badly the weapon itself was damaged. Since gunners are (obviously) calculated separately from the rest of the crew, it becomes easier to calculate their casualties.
All that's really needed then is some manner of calculating casualties amongst the crew for non-gunnery positions. Which brings us back to square one...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Savar
Captain
Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Posts: 589
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | There actually is precedent for it under the RAW. On the starship damage charts, when a ship's weapons are damaged, the gunners take damage on the Passenger Damage chart, according to how badly the weapon itself was damaged. Since gunners are (obviously) calculated separately from the rest of the crew, it becomes easier to calculate their casualties.
All that's really needed then is some manner of calculating casualties amongst the crew for non-gunnery positions. Which brings us back to square one... |
Well hit location charts(if have them) you could see what % would be in each location?
Also as the amount of damage the ship takes much affect larger areas of the ship causing more crew damage. Could just bar the % on damage result for the ship. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure what you mean. The starship damage charts are already broken up into hit locations, in the sense that a successful hit for damage will affect just one ship's system, be it maneuverability, shields, hyperdrive, weaponry, etc.
Percentages would primarily be effective in calculating crew losses after a battle, but the percentages would need to be randomized to a degree. For instance, rather than saying that a Severely Damage result inflicts 75% casualties, say that it inflicts 60+4D% casualties. You would then need further randomized modifiers to generate what percentage of the crew either a) was killed or too badly injured to return to duty without weeks or months of medical care, b) was either mildly injured and can quickly be returned to duty or was simply trapped in a damaged area of the ship and was unable to perform their duties, or c) was just shaken up a little by the initial attack and was able to return to duty again within a round or two.
As far as calculating long term effects of crew casualties, that would take a little more math. For example, a Nebulon B has 854 crew, with a skeleton crew of 307 @ +10. Per the RAW, a ship has to have at least a skeleton crew available to operate, so subtracting full crew from skeleton crew (854-307) gives us a split of 547. The Skeleton Crew Difficulty modifier is +10, so divide the 547 by 10 to get 54.7. With that established, for every 54-55 casualties among the crew, increase Command Difficulty by +1, up to a maximum of +10. This number would need to be calculated for every capital ship used in the campaign, and it is only really useful for a capital ship-oriented campaign, such Pirates & Privateers (in any other campaign, it is pretty much just extraneous number crunching).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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As far as generating total casualty numbers, I see something like so:Controls Ionized = 1D% Shaken
Lightly Damaged = 4D% Casualties (1D% Fatal, 2D% Shaken)
Heavily Damaged = 30+4D% Casualties (15+2D% Fatal, 15+2D% Shaken)
Severely Damaged = 60+4D% Casualties (40+3D% Fatal, 20+3D% Shaken)
Destroyed = 90+4D% Casualties (100% Fatalities. Any percentage of survivors those who barely made it to the escape pods).
Fatal = Crew killed or badly injured. Must be replaced.
Shaken = Crew shaken up or stunned, lasts for remainder of the round and all of the following round.
Other = Crew who were lightly injured or trapped in damaged sections. Return to duty after the battle as part of repairs and damage control.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
For example, suppose a Nebulon B takes Heavy Damage. In addition to the damage itself, it is assessed a -2D penalty to all skill rolls for the remainder of the round (and possibly all of the next, just to give it some added weight). At the beginning of the following round, that penalty is reduced to -1D, representing that some of the crew are still out of action due to injury or being trapped in damaged sections.
Once the battle is over, the ship can make a tally of permanent and temporary crew losses, which can then be applied to the existing crew totals.
I'm going to work up a chart to represent this, but I don't have anything quite yet... |
What of ships with only 1 or 2 crew though, such as practically every fighter/freighter? This seems to only disadvantage big crew ships. Unless fighters and freighters also have that issue.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16259
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:01 am Post subject: |
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For little ships, use the Passenger Damage rules, like it says in the RAW.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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