Dual Lightsabers rules?

[Random_Axe]

Is there any source for official d6 rules on Jedi's using two lightsabers? A couple of my players have expressed interest in using the style, and it seems a little weak for me to fall back on the "multiple-actions, -1d per lightsaber used in a round".

Seems that using two lightsabers as a style would be a generally more difficult move than one lightsaber, but it would provide greater striking benefit?

[CRMcNeill]

<shrug> I would just say increase difficulty to Very Difficult then add +1D to Lightsaber to represent both the increased Difficulty of defending against 2 lightsabers at the same time, as well as the first MAP for multiple actions.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Kytross]

I make it a specialization under lightsaber, allowing the player to up the skill at half the cost, and leave in multiple penalties.

5-6 Seconds is a very short period of time. Getting in two attacks and a parry requires a high skill level. Becoming an expert swordsman in the two sword style could be a goal for one of my players and something I would let them work toward. When they get to the point where they're devastating with their dual blades, they will know they have earned it.

[DarthOmega]

No official rule that I'm aware of, but if you dig around the forums you'll find quite a few threads on Lightsaber Forms, one of which, Form VI - Niman, I believe is a dual-wield style.
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[cheshire]

I've playtested rule variant after rule variant over the years. I was never satisfied with anything, and so I just chalk it up to style points.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[Jedi Skyler]

Form X, Jar'Kai, is the dual-wield form. A Jedi using this form becomes so adept at wielding two lightsabers that the penalty for using a second weapon is reduced to -2. Off-hand penalties still apply, however (unless, of course, the character is ambidextrous).

A complete document concerning lightsabers - including their construction and use - can be found here.

[garhkal]

[cheshire]

Honestly, I've given up on the idea of dual-wielding rules as I've never seen anything that realistically represents the idea of two-handed fighting, and I think that this is just one of those areas of D6 where the mechanics are too "broad brushstroke" to handle what it is really like.

I've had years of experience in the reading and practice of historical swordsmanship. I've got a library of Renaissance and Medieval fighting manuals and I study and practice with a group that meets weekly. In short, I feel confident in speaking about swordplay.

When you learn how to use one handed sword for the first time (and I'll speak in terms of rapiers, as that's what I have most of my experience with), it's awkward. Your brain is trying to map out this new extension of your body mechanics and it's difficult to make it go where you want it to go with any speed and accuracy. With time, your skill develops, and you can maneuver it quickly and accurately. If you're in good practice, you can make every defensive move a simultaneous offensive strike. If you're in REALLY good practice, your lower brain function begins the defensive maneuver before your conscious mind reflects, processes, and is aware of all of the maneuvers. That is to say, your reflexes can be sharper than your thinking.

Okay, so you're really good. Now we just add another weapon. In my case, I prefer to fight with a rapier and dagger. When you first get this new thing in your left hand, your fighting goes to crap. Your brain is still trying to keep the awareness it had developed with the lightning-quick reflexes of your right hand while trying to map out this new device in your left. It's trying to do those jobs at the same time. Sounds like MAPs at the moment, doesn't it? It kind of is. If I had two fighters of the same skill level, and then I suddenly handed one of them a dagger and told them to fight, I'd put my money on the guy WITHOUT the dagger.

The problem with the MAP route, is that with practice, you start to get better with both hands. Your brain maps out the new device, and makes it part of your body and makes it part of the new complex equations. Eventually it TOO becomes reflex. If you work and train hard you basically remove your own MAPs. If you had two guys, both of them with REALLY good training with sword and dagger, and then you give one a sword and dagger and the other just a sword, then my money is going to be on the guy with sword and dagger. Why? The guy with the dagger can defend with his off-hand while striking with the dominant hand or vis versa. Also, let's not forget that the guy can also attack simultaneously

Now let's give the guy who is trained with sword and dagger a brand new rapier to use in the left hand. His fighting is going to drop down again, and perhaps even worse than when he was first handed that nicely balanced off-hand dagger. Heck, I've even got a REALLY well balanced, lighter, shorter rapier to use in my off-hand. And because I've fallen out of practice with it, I've even picked it up to use as a handicap in multi-person fights when I knew I was with people who were marginally less skilled. When I started working back with two rapiers again, one of my teachers said that my problem was that I was using it like a big dagger... which it is not. Granted, if I were to train and train, then I would be more of a risk than I would be with a single rapier or than if I had a rapier and dagger. I could eventually remove the MAPs, and essentially give myself a free defensive action and free offensive action per "tempo" That is to say, in any given segment of time (the time it takes to make a single maneuver), I can defend one more time AND attack one more time than the guy with only one sword.

Basically, if they're REALLY good, they're moving both blades simultaneously, each one may be moving offensively and or defensively at the same time.

That's a mess of mechanics. Honestly, the best way I've been able to think about it is in terms of purchasing a special ability to fight with the off hand with a -2 for both offensive and defensive actions. Then purchasing a better ability after another month's study to get a free defensive action per round when using two weapons for which you have been trained. Then later after more study and more CP investment, gain a free offensive OR defensive action per round when attacking with two weapons with which you are proficient.

The problem is, that sounds way too much like d20 and feat progression for some people.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[cheshire]

TL;DR version:

In my experience a d20-feat-like abilities would approximate my personal experience training with dual-wielding.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[cynanbloodbane]

If the D20-style mechanic is too cumbersome use:

(A)Lightsaber/Lightdagger
(A)Lightsaber/Short Lightsaber
(A)Lightsaber/Lightsaber
(A)Double bladed Lightsaber

A character with these advance skills may fight with the off hand with a -2 for both offensive and defensive actions, normal MAP rules apply. After one month of dedicated use and a minimum value of (3d) gain a free defensive action per round when using two weapons for which you have been trained. After three months of dedicated use and a minimum value of (4d) gain a free offensive OR defensive action per round when attacking with two weapons with which you are proficient.

Gaining the bonuses are then tied to dedicated use (almost exclusive)
Retaining the bonuses could be tied to regular use (50% or more)
Loosing the bonuses could be tied to disuse (0-50%)
Easily tracked by a GM with tally marks
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[cheshire]

I did that route with the advanced skills once. I playtested it for about three years. The problem turned into a mathematical issue later on. In the long run, the cost of increasing the skill was far greater than just increasing the base skill and taking the MAPs for the various actions.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[cheshire]

P.S.
I don't necessarily think that the feat-like ability is too cumbersome. I think that it would be pretty simple. For 10 CPs you gain the ability "beginning dual-weapon fighting" which allows you to specify two weapons with which you are training and negate a single MAP, but each action with the weapons comes at a -2.

"Intermediate dual weapon fighting" allows you to make a free defensive action with one of those two weapons you specified you were training in. It takes an additional 15 CPs to gain.

For 20 CPS you can gain "dual weapon proficiency" and make one free offensive OR defensive action per turn.

I think that it will be frowned upon because there are otherwise no special abilities for purchase in any of our D6 rules.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[mcbobbo]

I've always just applied the MAP and left it at that. None of my players have ever liked this approach, ala 'why not just use one lightsaber twice?' My reply has always been 'Mr Broken Jedi Character feels he is being treated unfairly, here let me break out the smallest violin in the galaxy...'

[cheshire]

[Savar]