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Separatist Ships in Alliance Service
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would tend towards allowing droids which aren't actually plugged into the ship to be protected from ion cannon effects (at least, the ones attacking the ship itself). Techno-babble for it would be something like insulated walls and ceilings in crew spaces to protect both organic and droid crew.
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Zarm R'keeg
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno about the base concept here. Don't forget, most of the Rebels grew up as Repbulic folks, seeing the Seps as the bad guys. Just because the Empire corrupted their Republic...

Well, just imagine that the US got overthrown from within by some kinda dictator (please, no cracks about modern politics! Wink ), and a resistance formed to restore the ideals of the constitution... and then members of Al Queda showed up and said 'Hey, we were fighting the American government, too! Let's join forces!' I think the enemy-of-my-enemy mentality would not be enough to guarantee widespread adoption.

So I would tend to think the Rebellion wouldn't be doing much with CIS ships... especially as the Empire has a good couple of decades before organized rebellion, and I'm sure they'd go in and sweep up all the derelicts pretty quickly post Order 66- not just leave them sitting there waiting to be scavenged. Like, when we won WWII, we didn't just leave all the German/Japanese hardware sitting around because the war was over; we saw to it that it was taken or dismantled (as far as I know). I'd imagine the power-consolidating Empire doing the same within the first few months- occupying former Sepratist strongholds and rounding up their tech.

If anyone would be using those ships, IMHO, it would be the Imperials- though more likely, they'd be melting 'em down to provide raw materials for the rapid buildup of the Imperial starfleet. The only way I could see them in rebel hands is if they raided some Imperial shipyard of impounded derelicts, or you had a very early rebel/CIS group that got organized, fast (like, within days or weeks of the Empire's formation) and managed to muster up the towing power to grab these lifeless hulks and drag them somewhere that no one knew about before the Republic could sweep in and snap them up. And even then, that would be in small numbers...
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cynanbloodbane
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarm R'keeg wrote:
I dunno about the base concept here. Don't forget, most of the Rebels grew up as Repbulic folks, seeing the Seps as the bad guys. Just because the Empire corrupted their Republic...

Well, just imagine that the US got overthrown from within by some kinda dictator (please, no cracks about modern politics! Wink ), and a resistance formed to restore the ideals of the constitution... and then members of Al Queda showed up and said 'Hey, we were fighting the American government, too! Let's join forces!' I think the enemy-of-my-enemy mentality would not be enough to guarantee widespread adoption.


A better analogy would be that of Lincoln declaring himself emperor of the US at the end of the civil war. Would disgruntled Union loyalists attempt to appropriate & use Confederate equipment and munitions to oppose the new empire.

Zarm R'keeg wrote:
So I would tend to think the Rebellion wouldn't be doing much with CIS ships... especially as the Empire has a good couple of decades before organized rebellion, and I'm sure they'd go in and sweep up all the derelicts pretty quickly post Order 66- not just leave them sitting there waiting to be scavenged. Like, when we won WWII, we didn't just leave all the German/Japanese hardware sitting around because the war was over; we saw to it that it was taken or dismantled (as far as I know). I'd imagine the power-consolidating Empire doing the same within the first few months- occupying former Sepratist strongholds and rounding up their tech.

If anyone would be using those ships, IMHO, it would be the Imperials- though more likely, they'd be melting 'em down to provide raw materials for the rapid buildup of the Imperial starfleet. The only way I could see them in rebel hands is if they raided some Imperial shipyard of impounded derelicts, or you had a very early rebel/CIS group that got organized, fast (like, within days or weeks of the Empire's formation) and managed to muster up the towing power to grab these lifeless hulks and drag them somewhere that no one knew about before the Republic could sweep in and snap them up. And even then, that would be in small numbers...
I know that several Confederate Iron clads were sold off by the US after the civil war to cover war debt. Germany and Japan were both buyers. I can see many CIS ships being sold off to sector militia groups to cover costs of the ever growing Imperial war machine.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarm R'keeg wrote:
I dunno about the base concept here. Don't forget, most of the Rebels grew up as Repbulic folks, seeing the Seps as the bad guys. Just because the Empire corrupted their Republic...

I don't think this is a correct assumption. Certainly there are a lot of Republic loyalists in the ranks of the Alliance, but there could just as easily be a lot from the Separatist side as well. The Separatists weren't all corrupt and greedy businessmen; a lot of people on the Sep side believed that the Republic had become corrupt and no longer represented their best interests, and they joined the Separatists movement because they wanted more of a say in their own governance.

Plus, it's already established in the canon that the Rebellion has no issues using captured or defected Imperial equipment. Symbolism is important, but they are in such desperate straits that they will take whatever they can get. And lets be honest, the Empire's propaganda machine is going to make them look bad no matter what they do, so they might as well take whatever advantages they can get.
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Zarm R'keeg
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
The Separatists weren't all corrupt and greedy businessmen; a lot of people on the Sep side believed that the Republic had become corrupt and no longer represented their best interests, and they joined the Separatists movement because they wanted more of a say in their own governance.


True- but I don't know that a lot of ex-republic rebels would see it that way, is what I'm saying. I think they'd have an inbuilt bias against working with them. (Taking their stuff, yes- again, I just don't see it as being still available). Above, I was addressing more of a 'CIS survivors bring it with them' scenario, as that's the only plausible one I can see. I agree, the rebels would probably take what they could get, ship-wise... I just don't see any feasible way for it to fall into their hands, except in isolated incidents of 1s or 2s; a small handful- and even that would require some unique circumstances.
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cynanbloodbane
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except the formation of the empire kind of proves that the separatists were right about the Republic being corrupt. Many of the more honest loyalists would at least privately admit that an armed resistance may be called for. The next step is to try and secure the needed resources for that potential use.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:

Plus, it's already established in the canon that the Rebellion has no issues using captured or defected Imperial equipment. Symbolism is important, but they are in such desperate straits that they will take whatever they can get. And lets be honest, the Empire's propaganda machine is going to make them look bad no matter what they do, so they might as well take whatever advantages they can get.


Good point. Rebels by nature use all and anything they can get, symbolism not withstanding. So CIS stuff would be ok imo for them to use.

Plus maybe it's CAUSE the rebellion used some of the CIS (often linked with lots of droids) gear, is why the empire was so good at using Anti-droid and Anti-alien sentiment.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarm R'keeg wrote:
True- but I don't know that a lot of ex-republic rebels would see it that way, is what I'm saying. I think they'd have an inbuilt bias against working with them. (Taking their stuff, yes- again, I just don't see it as being still available). Above, I was addressing more of a 'CIS survivors bring it with them' scenario, as that's the only plausible one I can see. I agree, the rebels would probably take what they could get, ship-wise... I just don't see any feasible way for it to fall into their hands, except in isolated incidents of 1s or 2s; a small handful- and even that would require some unique circumstances.

That will ultimately be up to personal opinion. I doubt the Alliance would be able to get their hands on all of the Separatist ships, but they would certainly be able to get their hands on a sizable fraction. And while droid crews might be available initially, I definitely think they would've been phased out by the time of the Classic Era, in favor of living crews supported by droids.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Zarm R'keeg wrote:
I dunno about the base concept here. Don't forget, most of the Rebels grew up as Repbulic folks, seeing the Seps as the bad guys. Just because the Empire corrupted their Republic...

I don't think this is a correct assumption. Certainly there are a lot of Republic loyalists in the ranks of the Alliance, but there could just as easily be a lot from the Separatist side as well. The Separatists weren't all corrupt and greedy businessmen; a lot of people on the Sep side believed that the Republic had become corrupt and no longer represented their best interests, and they joined the Separatists movement because they wanted more of a say in their own governance.

Plus, it's already established in the canon that the Rebellion has no issues using captured or defected Imperial equipment. Symbolism is important, but they are in such desperate straits that they will take whatever they can get. And lets be honest, the Empire's propaganda machine is going to make them look bad no matter what they do, so they might as well take whatever advantages they can get.

cynanbloodbane wrote:
Except the formation of the empire kind of proves that the separatists were right about the Republic being corrupt. Many of the more honest loyalists would at least privately admit that an armed resistance may be called for. The next step is to try and secure the needed resources for that potential use.

garhkal wrote:
Rebels by nature use all and anything they can get, symbolism not withstanding. So CIS stuff would be ok imo for them to use.

Plus maybe it's CAUSE the rebellion used some of the CIS (often linked with lots of droids) gear, is why the empire was so good at using Anti-droid and Anti-alien sentiment.

Yes. While the Rebels were called the Alliance to Restore the Republic, it was established in the EU that the Rebels did use Separatist resources, and I agree that makes sense. And many former Separatists did join the Rebellion because they realized that the Empire is much worse than the Republic ever was. The Empire has a way of putting political ideals into perspective! A lot of Separatists may have even viewed themselves as anti-Palpatine because the Separatists movement didn't arise until about 8 years into Palpatine's supreme chancellorship, and by the time of the Rebellion it was decades into his rule of the galaxy.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I'm trying to nail down how the Alliance would make use of CIS Capital Ships, so that I know what direction I want to go with the stats. I've gotten the smaller ships nailed down, but the bigger ones are giving me some pause.
    C-9979 - This one's pretty obvious; the Alliance doesn't really have any landing craft.

    Munificent-Class Star Frigate - We actually discussed this one over on the Interstellar Communications thread, in that the Alliance could make great use of these ships as information warfare and propaganda platforms. They could also serve as command and control platforms for important operations.

    Recusant-Class Light Destroyer - As near as I can figure, this one would lose a lot of internal volume if it was converted over to an organic crew. That means low troop transport and starfighter capacity. It still has good guns, though, so I can see it serving in Alliance battle lines, but with an emphasis on direct fire combat, only carrying defensive starfighters.

    Providence-Class Star Cruiser - These would fit well into the Alliance Battle Lines, with both heavy guns and starfighter capacity. The insane number of proton torpedo tubes would likely need to be swapped out with energy weapons, for economy's sake.

    Lucrehulk-Class Battleship - These I'm picturing more as primarily troop transports. For big guns, I think I'll swap out the transceiver dishes on the Droid Control Ship and replace them with heavy turbolasers. The problem is that these ships make huge targets; even with the redesign needed for an organic crew, the Lucrehulk will still carry massive amounts of troops and starfighters, which would make them a prime target for the Empire in any fleet engagement. At the very least, these would only be fielded as part of much larger units, and held back at least somewhat from the front lines to protect them.

Those are my initial thoughts. Converting over the crew numbers is giving me some headaches, as the numbers quoted in the available sources seem ridiculously low for such large ships.

Thoughts?
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Luwingo_Spince
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
While the Rebels were called the Alliance to Restore the Republic, it was established in the EU that the Rebels did use Separatist resources


Here is one example of this. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rebel_One

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Thx1138
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you have to remember that at the beginning of the rebellion, they needed to get their hands on enough hardware to be a threat, the sep fleet covered all corners of the galaxy, just look at the amount that attacked Corusant and that was only a small fraction of the fleet. Also it would be impossible for any galactic government to recover all the ships used by the CIS, I mean we are still uncovering WWII Bombs in Europe. Most of the ships would be in pockets of the outer rim with a few in hundred in other sectors. Since the outer rim is not well patrolled and mapped by the empire, it is possible that a huge number of ships would stay lost like the Katana Fleet. Also any tracking equipment on them would have been shut down due to the shut down code disabling all equipment on the ships since many of the war ships are just huge droids crewed by smaller droids.
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Thx1138
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could also see the empire purposely leaving the ships to drift so that pirates and other groups could use them, that way the empire could justify the build up of military forces since with the clone wars over, many people would expect the military to be scaled down. If pirates used CIS ships in their raids, the empire would be able to use the fear from huge pirate fleets of CIS ships to continue the building of the Imperial fleet.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make...
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Zarm R'keeg
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make...


I think still disagreeing with my assertion (which I still hold to) that there would be few to none ships left or available for the Rebellion to get their hands on. (And trying to provide plausible reasons why CIS ships might still be out there to be found or commandeered).

I will admit that they are creative- but I remain unconvinced that CIS ships would number even in the double-digits in Alliance service. (For instance, we may still be finding WWII bombs... but I think most of the battleships and aircraft carriers are accounted for. Wink- and the Nazis didn't even have a centralized computer connected to units on every single piece of war equipment that could doubtless track and ID their location!)

...And I think that argument got resurrected along with the thread. Wink
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