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Quick clarification regarding Reactions
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Flakpanzer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:04 pm    Post subject: Quick clarification regarding Reactions Reply with quote

Hi all,

Reading the Reaction rules this morning, and just wanted a bit of a clarification.

Say your character gets Initiative, and decides to shoot once with a Blaster twice (-1D Multiple Action Penalty), then later in the round, decides to use a Reaction skill to dodge...This would be a third action and suffer a -2D penalty.

If you have initiative on an opponent, there is never really a reason to state up front that you are going to perform an action and a reaction, correct?

If you did, you would be penalized the multi-action penalty to both that first action, and a reaction. Whereas, if you declare a reaction when you get shot at (after having already performed another action in the turn), your first action gets away without suffering the Reaction multi-action penalty and only the actual Reaction suffers the multi-action penalty.

Am I getting this right?

Thanks.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You essentially have it correct. The side that won initiative, in order of highest Perception to lowest declares how many actions they are going to perform and declares their first action. This continues with the person who has the next highest Perception and so on. When one side is done, the same is done for the side that lost initiative. Once everyone has performed their first actions, all those who declared second actions go in the same initiative order and so on until all actions are performed.

Actions do not need to be declared in advance and do not include reactive skills (brawling parry, dodge, melee parry, etc). No matter how many actions are declared a character may only move once. Every action declared after the first is assessed a -1D MAP to all skill rolls.

A reactive skill does not have to be declared until the character is being engaged. Reactive skills may be used in two ways:

1. as additional "free" action but must pay an additional MAP for using it.
2. If more than one action was declared the character may opt to "burn" his remaining actions to preform the reactive skill with no further MAP penalty other than the original MAP.

Example: Zohm declares three actions and his first action is going to be to shoot at the Stormtrooper over by the doorway. Three actions means all his skill rolls are at -2D. He fires his blaster pistol and misses the trooper. Later in the round he specforce trooper takes aim at Zohm with a really big blaster rifle at short range. Knowing he does not want to get hit with that, he declares he is dodging. This is considered a fourth action, all skill rolls are now rolled at -3D. He decides he can't afford that extra -1D to his dodge at this point and declares he is going to burn his second and third actions to not take an additional penalty to his dodge. So now he rolls his dodge at -2D instead of -3D but in doing so he has no further actions in the round.

As a side note, characters must declare if they are going to augment their reactive skill with Character Points before the GM rolls for the opposing character.

Example: Zohm rolls his dodge and gets an 11, he decides to spend a Character Points and rolls a 3 for a total of 14, he decides to spend another Character Point and rolls a 5 for a total of 19. He can only spend up to two Character Points. The GM difficulty number to hit Zohm is now 19 regardless of what range the enemy are firing from.

Remember that the new difficulty number lasts until the end of the round. Characters do not keep making a reactive skill roll every time they are engaged. Its once and lasts until the end of the round.

Hope that helps.
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Flakpanzer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you.

Great explanation.

I think the thing that 'seemed funny to me' was if you only declare one action, and then later take a reaction, that first action isn't penalized the -1D penalty (only the reaction is).

If you declare two actions, the first action is at a -1D penalty, and if you decide to "burn" the second one as a reaction, then both end up getting the -1D penalty.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad I was able to help. Any further questions let us know. If you have not looked at it, the G+ community Star Wars D6 is a companion resource with Rancor Pit. Take a look if your looking for some additional information, input and suggestions =)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cause of that little 'glitch' in the wording, it seems anyone can wait to get shot to dodge. So there is never any reason to ever declare a reaction skill.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Cause of that little 'glitch' in the wording, it seems anyone can wait to get shot to dodge. So there is never any reason to ever declare a reaction skill.


I never thought of it as a "glitch" since the wording "reactive" implies one does not have to declare you are going to do it, that it is indeed, a reaction to something and not a planned action.

R&E p.79 "The character can wait until he's attacked to use a reaction skill."

R&E p.89 " (As explained in 'The Rules,' you can use a reaction skill at any time)."

Nothing "glitchy" about that there language, nu-uh, no way, boo-yeah gramps! LOL.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
R&E p.79 "The character can wait until he's attacked to use a reaction skill."

R&E p.89 " (As explained in 'The Rules,' you can use a reaction skill at any time)."

I concur with Dan/Don.

Flakpanzer wrote:
I think the thing that 'seemed funny to me' was if you only declare one action, and then later take a reaction, that first action isn't penalized the -1D penalty (only the reaction is).

The first action isn't penalized because the first action already happened by the time of the "later" undeclared reaction to something else. That may seem funny but that is the benefit of reactions. The downsides are, undeclared reactions are limited to very specific things you can do (dodge, vehicle evade, etc.), and they do have an additional penalty for that action and all remaining actions that round.

Flakpanzer wrote:
If you declare two actions, the first action is at a -1D penalty, and if you decide to "burn" the second one as a reaction, then both end up getting the -1D penalty.

Just for clarity, if you declare two actions, then not only the first action is at -1D, both actions are at -1D, no matter what the second action is. Reactions are undeclared actions, and the additional -1D penalty applies to the reaction and all remaining actions that have not yet occurred in that round, from the point the reaction occurs.

When it comes to your first turn in the initiative of the round, since you only declare the first action and the total number of declared actions (to determine the MAP penalty for the first action), you can do anything you want for any of the subsequent declared actions, not only using them as reactions but also using them for different actions then you had in mind when you declared the total number of actions. They were all accounted for in the initial total declared actions.

So like it has been said, it really doesn't make sense to declare reactions up front because they may count against you more than necessary. When you are faced with reacting to an attack against you, you decide if it is an extra action to your declared total or it just uses one of the declared actions. An extra action reaction has the additional penalty for that and all remaining actions that round, while using an existing declared action only has the original penalty.

And if you get attacked before your first turn in the round, you can decide to react or not, and if you do, it is your first action so not penalized. If you successfully dodge/evade, then when it comes to your turn you have the -1D penalty per declared action due to the extra action that already occurred in that round.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why i find it a glitch. Cause you can take any # of reactions, after the fact, and only penalize them (and any other actions you have from then on). Unlike regular actions which by the rules of multiple action penalties, gets ALL actions penalized.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I (and my players) have always considered this to be a 'glitch' as well, and there's not a perfect work-around (that we've found, anyway). The way we play is to "try to be honest", more or less. In other words, when it comes time for a player to declare their actions for the turn, they generally will try to factor in if they feel they are likely to dodge. That said, there's no penalty if they honestly never intended to dodge and then suddenly (later) decide to do so. They'd just pay the appropriate MAP later.

I was agreeing with SWR until he got to this part. After this I do not agree that these are correct interpretations of the RAW. FWIW, I agree 100% with everything Whill wrote.

shootingwomprats wrote:
Actions do not need to be declared in advance and do not include reactive skills (brawling parry, dodge, melee parry, etc). No matter how many actions are declared a character may only move once. Every action declared after the first is assessed a -1D MAP to all skill rolls.


Actually, actions do need to be declared in advance. Everything else written here is correct.

shootingwomprats wrote:
A reactive skill does not have to be declared until the character is being engaged. Reactive skills may be used in two ways:

1. as additional "free" action but must pay an additional MAP for using it.
2. If more than one action was declared the character may opt to "burn" his remaining actions to preform the reactive skill with no further MAP penalty other than the original MAP.


This is all correct.

shootingwomprats wrote:
Example: Zohm declares three actions and his first action is going to be to shoot at the Stormtrooper over by the doorway. Three actions means all his skill rolls are at -2D. He fires his blaster pistol and misses the trooper. Later in the round he specforce trooper takes aim at Zohm with a really big blaster rifle at short range. Knowing he does not want to get hit with that, he declares he is dodging. This is considered a fourth action, all skill rolls are now rolled at -3D. He decides he can't afford that extra -1D to his dodge at this point and declares he is going to burn his second and third actions to not take an additional penalty to his dodge. So now he rolls his dodge at -2D instead of -3D but in doing so he has no further actions in the round.


Most of this is correct. If the player chose to Dodge as a fourth action, then that (as well as all further actions) would be at -3D. If they decided to burn one of their declared actions for the Dodge, then it would be -2D. But using a Dodge like this in the middle of the turn doesn't make it so that he "has no further actions in the round". If after he shot (for his first action) and then dodged (for his second), he could then fire again (for his third action), and all of them would be at -2D (since he took three actions that turn).

shootingwomprats wrote:
As a side note, characters must declare if they are going to augment their reactive skill with Character Points before the GM rolls for the opposing character.

Example: Zohm rolls his dodge and gets an 11, he decides to spend a Character Points and rolls a 3 for a total of 14, he decides to spend another Character Point and rolls a 5 for a total of 19. He can only spend up to two Character Points. The GM difficulty number to hit Zohm is now 19 regardless of what range the enemy are firing from.


Players don't have to declare they're spending CP before the roll. Not only that, but they can choose to continue to spend them, as needed, until they hit the maximum allowed. For things like Dodge (a defensive action), they can spend up to 5, not 2.

shootingwomprats wrote:
Remember that the new difficulty number lasts until the end of the round. Characters do not keep making a reactive skill roll every time they are engaged. Its once and lasts until the end of the round.

Hope that helps.


That last part is true.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
Actually, actions do need to be declared in advance. Everything else written here is correct.


As in the example, the number of action is declared and your first action, your additional actions do not need to be described. Declared yes, but what they are going to be, no.

R&E p.78 "The player tells you how many actions he's making this round and you assign the multiple action penalty. Then, the player rolls his character's first action.

R&E p.78 in the example Thannick(Bill) declares two actions and performs his first action, he does not declare what his second action is.

Quote:
If they decided to burn one of their declared actions for the Dodge, then it would be -2D. But using a Dodge like this in the middle of the turn doesn't make it so that he "has no further actions in the round". If after he shot (for his first action) and then dodged (for his second), he could then fire again (for his third action), and all of them would be at -2D (since he took three actions that turn).


R&E p.79 "The character can use up any remaining actions for a reaction or have the reaction be an extra action, accepting the higher multiple action penalty for the rest of the round."

Notice plural when relating to actions and singular for reaction.

Quote:
Players don't have to declare they're spending CP before the roll. Not only that, but they can choose to continue to spend them, as needed, until they hit the maximum allowed. For things like Dodge (a defensive action), they can spend up to 5, not 2.


That is what I said in my example, but here are the rule references for clarity.

R&E p.83 "A player may wait until after a skill or attribute roll is made before deciding to spend Character Points, but they must be spent before anyone else takes an action."

R&E p.84 "Two (Character Points) to improve a skill or attribute roll."
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
DougRed4 wrote:
Actually, actions do need to be declared in advance. Everything else written here is correct.


As in the example, the number of action is declared and your first action, your additional actions do not need to be described. Declared yes, but what they are going to be, no.


Sounds like you have it right, but just used the wrong terminology. You said "actions do not need to be declared", but then (in your response) said they do need to be declared, just that you don't have to spell out what you do. I agree. But you do have to declare how many actions you are taking.

shootingwomprats wrote:
R&E p.78 "The player tells you how many actions he's making this round and you assign the multiple action penalty. Then, the player rolls his character's first action.

R&E p.78 in the example Thannick(Bill) declares two actions and performs his first action, he does not declare what his second action is.

Quote:
If they decided to burn one of their declared actions for the Dodge, then it would be -2D. But using a Dodge like this in the middle of the turn doesn't make it so that he "has no further actions in the round". If after he shot (for his first action) and then dodged (for his second), he could then fire again (for his third action), and all of them would be at -2D (since he took three actions that turn).


shootingwomprats wrote:
R&E p.79 "The character can use up any remaining actions for a reaction or have the reaction be an extra action, accepting the higher multiple action penalty for the rest of the round."

Notice plural when relating to actions and singular for reaction.


Interesting interpretation. I see how you're getting that. The question becomes: what does "use up any remaining actions for
a reaction" mean? I interpret this as:

- A player can substitute (i.e., "use up") any reaction for any previously declared action, on a one-to-one ratio.

And you seem to be interpreting it as:

- All previous declared actions are "used up".

So what do the rest of you think? How have you typically played this?


shootingwomprats wrote:
Quote:
Players don't have to declare they're spending CP before the roll. Not only that, but they can choose to continue to spend them, as needed, until they hit the maximum allowed. For things like Dodge (a defensive action), they can spend up to 5, not 2.


That is what I said in my example, but here are the rule references for clarity.

R&E p.83 "A player may wait until after a skill or attribute roll is made before deciding to spend Character Points, but they must be spent before anyone else takes an action."

R&E p.84 "Two (Character Points) to improve a skill or attribute roll."


The part that is wrong in your example is when you said "He can only spend up to two Character Points. " In truth, since it is a defensive reaction, he can use up to five.

R&E p. 83 "Five on any use of dodge, melee parry or brawling
parry, parries when using the lightsaber skill, or dodging
when piloting a vehicle or starship."
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
The part that is wrong in your example is when you said "He can only spend up to two Character Points. " In truth, since it is a defensive reaction, he can use up to five.


I stand corrected on this point. I don't normally make that sort of error but when I do I quickly acknowledge it and accept by culpability. Thanks for making aware of my error.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can also go up to 5CP for a skill roll in a specialty.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
You can also go up to 5CP for a skill roll in a specialty.


That is correct. I wasn't going to give him a complete listing, with examples of every combat combination possible. I gave him a few examples that will cover 99+% of the combat he is likely to play or GM.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
[R&E p.79 "The character can use up any remaining actions for a reaction or have the reaction be an extra action, accepting the higher multiple action penalty for the rest of the round."


Upon further reflection (and after talking this over with two of my players), my belief is that if they meant for it to use up every remaining action a player had, they would/should have used the word "all". In other words:

"The character can use up all remaining actions for a reaction..."

Still curious, how do the rest of you play this?
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