Dark Side Redemption

[Mojomoe]

Heya!

I've never actually used the Dark Side mechanics in RAW. Is there a pre-built mechanism that covers forcibly converting a fallen character back to the Light Side? Helping them break the Dark Side's power?

I know there's thr ability to slowly atone for their DSPs, but what about a light side character doing it TO a dark sider?

[Jedi Skyler]

I don't know that it's possible. After all, the character would need to WANT to atone; if they don't think they're doing wrong, they'll have no impetus whatsoever to change, let alone to WANT to change.

[garhkal]

I have not seen in the books any real solid rules for 'redeeming' someone.

Even sparks has no 'mechanical' rules for it, you just need to create a "Moment of doubt" to at least break the dark side's hold. Then they come back to the light with still carrying 5 DSPs (remember when someone turns they automatically lose all CP and FP), and have to then atone from there on.
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[Mojomoe]

Hmm.

Did the rule books ever explain how Vader turned back to the lights at the end?

I was considering a power based on the fan power Inspire, possibly with that as a prerequisite.

How about this, a power called "Redemption." Control/Sense/Alter. The Control difficulty is equal to the target's Force Points. The Sense difficulty is equal to the target's Willpower. The Alter difficulty is equal to the target's Dark Side Points.

If (and only if) all three rolls are successful, is the target redeemed.

Thoughts?

[CRMcNeill]

In my Dueling Sabers alternate rule system, I included rules for verbal and psychological warfare, Dun Moch vs. Form Zero. I had to expand the concept behind Form Zero to make it fit, but it encompasses the "Moment of Doubt" rule.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Mojomoe]

Hmmm...

So, are you suggesting it would work better as a built-in mechanic of the system (ie, there's always room for a "moment of doubt"), or as a Force Skill that can be use un-taught? (noting that Luke never "learned" to redeem anyone, it just sort of happened)

[CRMcNeill]

[Mojomoe]

This is interesting.

I looked through the Dueling Sabers variant, but maybe I missed it. Once you've achieved a "moment of doubt," what happens next? Do you have a mechanic for that?

If it's good I might borrow the system whole hog for TOR.

The reason I bring it up is that, in the primary TOR campaign, there are multiple instances of Jedi falling under the spell of the Sith, and later being "redeemed" and talked back to the Light, after which they return to the Jedi Council and begin their healing. Having a mechanic for this would be helpful - the Jedi Acolyte even attempts this on the black-as-blackhearted Emperor, so we know it's a common thing.

Would be interesting to even have a way for a Jedi character to go on a mission to redeem a fallen PC-turned-NPC and turn him back to the light, by which the NPC becomes a PC again. Wouldn't that be neat?

[CRMcNeill]

Here is the relevant text:

DUN MOCH & FORM ZERO: FORCE ASSISTED PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE (Optional Rule)

Dun Moch and Form Zero are two sides of the same coin, and constitute the use of psychological warfare in combat between Jedi and Sith. The Sith discipline of Dun Moch seeks to dominate and crush an opponent's spirit, while Form Zero is the Jedi Order's more peaceful counterpart, in which the Jedi seeks to undermine his opponent's commitment to the Dark Side. Using either Dun Moch or Form Zero in lightsaber combat is linked to initiative. Whoever wins initiative for that round may choose to make a pychological attack. He may also choose not to, as MAPs are applied as normal for all skill rolls, and in a pitched battle, the adept may decide that any advantage provided by a successful Dun Moch attack may not be worth the risks elsewhere. However, the initiative winner may still choose to make a Dun Moch attack even if he chooses not to attack physically.

A Dun Moch / Form Zero attack must be declared at the beginning of the round, and incurs an automatic MAP (one for the extra Sense roll and one for the Intimidation roll). If used in the same round as a combat roll, the MAP

To initiate a Dun Moch attack, the attacker rolls his Sense dice, then compares the result to the following table:

1-12 = +1D
13-24 = +2D
25-36 = +3D
37-48 = +4D
(For every additional 12 points, increase the bonus by +1D)

The resulting bonus is added to the Dun Moch adept's Intimidation skill

The defender counters by rolling his Control dice for a bonus on the same table, then adding that bonus to his Willpower skill. If the Dun Moch adept's roll is lower than that of his target, nothing happens. If it is higher, then apply the result to the same result chart above, and apply the result as a penalty to the target character's actions the next round (including any subsequent Dun Moch rolls). The defending character may choose to spend CPs to counter a poor roll, but is limited to a maximum of 5 CPs at a time, as with other reaction skills.

However, Dun Moch is not a guaranteed result, as sometimes the taunting results in a surge of rage or an unexpected bolstering of the opponent's spirit. On a confirmed Wild Dice result (failure by the Dun Moch practitioner or success by his target), the target receives a temporary Force Point that must be used in the next round or it is lost. If the Dun Moch target kills his opponent while using this Force point, he automatically receives a DSP.

Example: Darth Zilla, with 8D Sense and 9D Intimidation is facing Jedi Knight Generic Antilles, with 7D Control and 8D Willpower. Zilla wins the initiative, and chooses to stand fast while initiating a Dun Moch attack, so he rolls his 8D (-1D MAP) Sense for a result of 28 (for +3D bonus). Generic rolls his 7D Control (-1D MAP) for a result of 22 (for a +2D bonus). The two then roll their respective skills: Zilla rolls 11D (9D Intimidation + 3D Sense Bonus - 1D MAP for a result of 37), against Antilles' 9D (8D Willpower + 2D Control Bonus - 1D MAP for a result of 30). Zilla beats Antilles by 7 points, resulting in a -1D penalty to all of his actions the following round.

NOTE: For the purposes of this rule, I limited Dun Moch / Form Zero to Intimidation vs. Willpower rolls only. However, a realistic system would also permit the use of Con or Persuasion vs. Willpower, depending on the circumstances and what result the attacker is trying to achieve. In general, use Intimidation if the attacker is trying to induce fear in his opponent, Con if he is trying to make him angry, and Persuasion if he is trying to seduce him to the Dark Side or cause a Moment of Doubt.

There is still plenty of room for refinement, obviously. The initial roll could be pared down to a single opposed roll rather than both sides rolling for bonuses, and I'm sure there are other ways to clean it up. The simplest version would be:

1)The Dun Moch practitioner rolls his Sense dice against his target's Willpower or Control Dice. Compare the result to the following table:
Roll Succeeds By = Bonus to Winner's Roll*
1-12 = +1D
13-24 = +2D
25-36 = +3D
37+ = +4D

*This will be either the Dun Moch Practitioner's Intimidation or Persuasion skill, or his target's Willpower skill, depending on who rolled higher.

2)The Dun Moch Practitioner then rolls his Intimidation or Persuasion dice against his target's Willpower, adding in any bonuses as appropriate. Compare the result to the following table:
Attacker's Roll Succeeds By = Penalty to Target's Skills*
1-12 = +1D
13-24 = +2D
25-36 = +3D
37+ = +4D

*This is a blanket penalty to all relevant skills being utilized by the target in the duel, representing how the Dun Moch practitioner has unbalanced and distracted his opponent.

_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Mojomoe]

This is good.

What I'm still not clear on is the actual mechanic of conversion/redemption.

I can totally understand GM fiat and leaving it to roleplaying, but for example's sake let's say I'm boiling it down to a clear mechanic.

Master Sev wants to engage Darth Vosh, a fallen Jedi, and convert him to the Light Side. He makes his Force skill rolls, applies bonus, then the two roll their Persuasion vs Willpower. Sev wins... Assuming a good bit of roleplaying on his part, would you rule Vosh converted?

I had considered something that targeted willpower vs persuasion FIRST (appealing to personality), then Sense vs the target's DSP total (overcoming the pull of the dark side). In this manner you have to win over te individual and THEN break them from the dark side. Only then are they free.

Thoughts?

[CRMcNeill]

That is the basic mechanic, yes, but cinematics should also be taken into account. If Darth Vosh is a recurring villain, and his redemption should only come at a dramatically appropriate moment, then the difficulty numbers for inducing a moment of doubt should be too high to overcome, at first. This isn't the sort of thing that should just happen because two strangers happened to meet for a lightsaber fight.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Ankhanu]

I think there's a lot of danger in making atonement a mechanics issue... it kind of needs to be narrative, akin to travelling at the speed of plot, ya know? If mechanics are introduced, it turns it into criterion matching; "ok, I've spent three days meditating, making ever more difficult stamina rolls... that should be enough for stage 1, right??" It loses the idea of journey and self-discovery.

Likewise, the idea of a Force Power to trigger a change in outlook, self-discovery and battle of will to be antithetical to the whole idea.

Like Skylar said, the character has to want it.

If you're familiar with Changeling: the Dreaming, every character (every fae) went through a process of awakening to their true nature, the Chrysalis. It's an important narrative or background component of the character and concept. There are no rules for how to achieve it, no rules for how to run it to bring a character through it... it's open ended. Rules are less important than the journey.
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[CRMcNeill]

[Mojomoe]

Agreed.

The other thing a rule/mechanic does is remind players that it's an OPTION. Otherwise you might question if your GM would even allow it; having a mechanic for it helps in situations where players don't know to ask for it.

[garhkal]