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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:32 am Post subject: Barrage Pattern Battery Fire vs. Starfighters |
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So, I'm currently on a tear writing up rules for Advanced Starfighter Combat for D6. I'm including information on improving the anti-starfighter defenses of existing capital ships. In the past, we have discussed using massed battery fire to create the equivalent of difficult terrain for the starfighters to fly through, and I'd like to include it. However, we never came up with a solid rule for this, and I'm drawing a blank when I try to come up with one on my own. If you have any ideas, I am all ears.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Honestly, I think that if you just run it as terrain hazard and that increases the difficulty of manuevering through that section of space, then it would run pretty simply. Failure means that they have to use their manuevering to twist, dodge, and twitch thereby not gaining any ground in the intended direction. It would be the equivalent of shouting over the comm, "I can't get to you, Red 3, it's too hot."
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:55 am Post subject: |
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I came up with my FlaK rule awhile back. The way it worked was:
The FlaK value starts off as the average attack roll for the weapon, factoring in for gunner skill, fire control and combined fire (whichever combined fire rule you prefer, me I like the +1D per doubling).
This Flak value is the terrain difficulty that the pilots flying through the threatened area must roll against. If they fail, use the Starship Movement Failures table, but replace the various "Collisions" results with being hit by a FlaK gun, and use the FlaK gun's damage value as the normal damage. So a "Minor Hit" would do normal damage -3D, and a "Major Hit" would do normal damage +4D (the ship got hit multiple times).
You can also attack more than one area (SU) by lose 3 tot he FlaK value per addtional SU, since the fire won't be as thick.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16283
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Honestly, I think that if you just run it as terrain hazard and that increases the difficulty of manuevering through that section of space, then it would run pretty simply. Failure means that they have to use their manuevering to twist, dodge, and twitch thereby not gaining any ground in the intended direction. It would be the equivalent of shouting over the comm, "I can't get to you, Red 3, it's too hot." |
I agree completely, and that is what we came up with as a basic idea in a different topic. What I'm trying to come up with is an equitable way of using the dice values of the capital ship's guns, combined with any bonuses from coordinated fire, to generate a Terrain Difficulty. I want the process as simplified as possible, with all the math already done for the GMs who will be using it.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16283
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | I came up with my FlaK rule awhile back. The way it worked was:
The FlaK value starts off as the average attack roll for the weapon, factoring in for gunner skill, fire control and combined fire (whichever combined fire rule you prefer, me I like the +1D per doubling).
This Flak value is the terrain difficulty that the pilots flying through the threatened area must roll against. If they fail, use the Starship Movement Failures table, but replace the various "Collisions" results with being hit by a FlaK gun, and use the FlaK gun's damage value as the normal damage. So a "Minor Hit" would do normal damage -3D, and a "Major Hit" would do normal damage +4D (the ship got hit multiple times).
You can also attack more than one area (SU) by lose 3 tot he FlaK value per addtional SU, since the fire won't be as thick.
You like? |
Maybe it's because I haven't finished my morning coffee, but I'm not entirely sure I understand what you wrote...
Here's the basic premise of what I'm thinking:
1). The massed batteries who are participating in the barrage pattern target a specific area in space. Since the size of a SU is deliberately vague (and I have other ideas in mind that will use this premise), I'm going to say that they are targeting a box in space approximately 1 cubic Space Unit in volume.
2). The massed batteries will fire as normal, using Gunnery + Fire Control + any coordination bonuses, rolling against whatever the difficulty is to hit a target at that range.
3). For every 5 points by which the combined Fire Control roll exceeds the base Difficulty, the Terrain Difficulty goes up by one level.
Example Tables:Range To Target = Base Difficulty
Point Blank = Very Easy
Short = Easy
Medium = Moderate
Long = Difficult
To Hit Roll > Base Difficulty by = Terrain Difficulty
1-5 = Very Easy
6-10 = Easy
11-15 = Moderate
16-20 = Difficult
21-30 = Very Difficult
31-40 = Heroic
41+ = Heroic+10
Note: The generated Terrain Difficulty is based solely on the difficulty of navigating through the barrage pattern, and does not take into account any other naturally occurring terrain difficulties.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, if you are going to go that route, I suggest you keep it like the RAW in that the difficulty from gunnery should just replace the base difficulty, instead of checking to see how much it beats it by and increasing it.
It's quicker that way, and the net effect is about the same. The only real differences are that:
1) It is easier for the gunners to screw up and lower the terrain difficulty if they aren't very good-which makes sense to me.
2) it's harder for the gunners to up the difficulty at long range, since they need to beat a higher value. This aslo seems fair to me, since at long range it will be harder for all the shots to be on target. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | I came up with my FlaK rule awhile back. The way it worked was:
The FlaK value starts off as the average attack roll for the weapon, factoring in for gunner skill, fire control and combined fire (whichever combined fire rule you prefer, me I like the +1D per doubling).
This Flak value is the terrain difficulty that the pilots flying through the threatened area must roll against. If they fail, use the Starship Movement Failures table, but replace the various "Collisions" results with being hit by a FlaK gun, and use the FlaK gun's damage value as the normal damage. So a "Minor Hit" would do normal damage -3D, and a "Major Hit" would do normal damage +4D (the ship got hit multiple times).
You can also attack more than one area (SU) by lose 3 tot he FlaK value per addtional SU, since the fire won't be as thick.
You like? |
Would this 'flak' value replace the base terrain difficulty, or add to it?
Also, would scale differences modify it?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16283
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Okay, if you are going to go that route, I suggest you keep it like the RAW in that the difficulty from gunnery should just replace the base difficulty, instead of checking to see how much it beats it by and increasing it. |
Uh, I thought that's what I was already doing. The base difficulty listed in the first table is the generic base difficulty for hitting a target at a given range (Point Blank, Short, Medium or Long). It's not like a Space Unit can dodge, so the base difficulty is just the difficulty it takes to put a shot onto a non-moving target at range, and it gets progressively easier as the target moves closer.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16283
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Also, would scale differences modify it? |
Maybe, but we would probably need a special rule to cover it. A capital ship could likely sail right through an anti-starfighter barrage with minimal damage.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | Okay, if you are going to go that route, I suggest you keep it like the RAW in that the difficulty from gunnery should just replace the base difficulty, instead of checking to see how much it beats it by and increasing it. |
Uh, I thought that's what I was already doing. |
Not if I'm reading your rule correctly. From what I've read you:
1) Have a base difficulty for range
2) Roll Gunnery
3) Increase the difficulty by one level per 5 points the gunnery roll beats the base.
What I'm saying is that you could just make the gunnery roll and replace the base difficulty with it.
For example:
Let's say you got an ISD firing at a spot 8 SUs away. That's short range, and will will give it a base difficulty of 8. Now lets say that the attack roll ends up being a 23.
By your method 23 beats 8 by 15 raising the difficulty 3 levels to Very Difficult, and the GM would need to still pick a difficulty in that range.
By my method we would just replace the 8 difficulty with the 23. No subtraction needed, no table needed, and no need for the GM to pick a second difficulty when finished. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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By your method, the terrain difficulty will be the same at 8 units or 75. I want to keep range as a factor, as it means that a barrage pattern will likely become more intense and accurate the closer a starfighter gets.
Some mention should also be made of how Speed affects Terrain Difficulty. In this situation, I would think that the increased Difficulty might actually be cancelled out by the fact that the starfighters in the barrage pattern are presenting more difficult targets. Should there be a special rule, or just stick with the RAW on this one?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Also, would scale differences modify it? |
Maybe, but we would probably need a special rule to cover it. A capital ship could likely sail right through an anti-starfighter barrage with minimal damage. |
But would (Or should) fighter's walk through a cap ship barrage? Watch galactica. They consistently show flak batteries being put up to not only stop fighters breaking through but also enemy missiles.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But would (Or should) fighter's walk through a cap ship barrage? |
Well, no, but that's kinda the point of this rule.
| Quote: | | They consistently show flak batteries being put up to not only stop fighters breaking through but also enemy missiles. |
Now, that I can see. Unfortunately, the missile rules I've worked out (as well as the rules for point defense) all treat missiles exclusively as weapons, but for this rule to apply, they would somehow have to transition over to being treated as vehicles, too. Not that I think the barrage pattern wouldn't be able to shoot down missiles; it just wouldn't do as good a job of it as certain other weapons might.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | By your method, the terrain difficulty will be the same at 8 units or 75. I want to keep range as a factor, as it means that a barrage pattern will likely become more intense and accurate the closer a starfighter gets. |
No it wont, because it will get augmented by the attack roll. It's just like how range difficulty isn't much of a factor for attacks, since it normally get's replaced by a dodge.
Going with my previous example, if the ship were targeting somewhere out at 70SU (long range) it would work like this:
Your method: Base difficulty is Difficulty. I'll go with the midpoint number of 18. Gunnery roll of 23, which beats the difficulty by 5 and bumps the terrain up to Very Difficult, and since we are at the low end here, probably somewhere arounda 23 difficulty.
My method: The 23 replaces the initial difficulty.
See the same result. Not only for this example, but for both short and long range.
| Quote: |
Some mention should also be made of how Speed affects Terrain Difficulty. In this situation, I would think that the increased Difficulty might actually be cancelled out by the fact that the starfighters in the barrage pattern are presenting more difficult targets. Should there be a special rule, or just stick with the RAW on this one? |
Well, the gunners aren;t really targeting the ships, per sey, but the area they are flying through. Faster fighters would take a bit longer to track. It's not like the fighters are really dodging each shot in the barrage.
Now in my campaigns, I have a house rule where piloting difficully goes up a level a high speed, two at all-out, and drops a level at cautious. You could use that if you like it. It would make it easier for slow moving ships to avoid the barrage, but if would taken them longer to get out of range, so they would get shot at more.
Oh,is barrage fire is a full round action for the gunners.?It really ins't effective if they don't keep it up. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16283
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Your method: Base difficulty is Difficulty. I'll go with the midpoint number of 18. Gunnery roll of 23, which beats the difficulty by 5 and bumps the terrain up to Very Difficult, and since we are at the low end here, probably somewhere arounda 23 difficulty.
My method: The 23 replaces the initial difficulty.
See the same result. Not only for this example, but for both short and long range. |
You are misreading the table. The Terrain Difficulty from the above shot would not be Very Difficult; it would be Very Easy. Your roll of 23 beat the Difficult (18) difficulty to fire the cannon at the right place, by 5 points. That five points is what is applied to the Terrain Table (in addition to any naturally occurring terrain modifiers that the GM feels are appropriate).
Now, same scenario, different range. Starfighters are now at Short Range instead of Long, which is Easy (10) Difficulty. The same roll of 23 beats the Gunnery Difficulty by 13 points which, when applied to the table, results in Moderate Terrain Difficulty. What this shows is that, as the range drops, the accuracy of the barrage pattern increases, and the Terrain Difficulty will go up. With your scenario, the Terrain Difficulty would stay the same regardless of the range.
| Quote: | | Well, the gunners aren't really targeting the ships, per se, but the area they are flying through. Faster fighters would take a bit longer to track. It's not like the fighters are really dodging each shot in the barrage. |
True. In the absence of more detailed information, I guess I will just rule that speed-based difficulty modifiers are applied as normal.
| Quote: | | Now in my campaigns, I have a house rule where piloting difficultly goes up a level a high speed, two at all-out, and drops a level at cautious. You could use that if you like it. It would make it easier for slow moving ships to avoid the barrage, but if would taken them longer to get out of range, so they would get shot at more. |
Is this in addition to the RAW's Movement restrictions? I could almost see applying those modifiers to the Base Difficulty to target a moving craft instead...
| Quote: | | Oh,is barrage fire is a full round action for the gunners.?It really ins't effective if they don't keep it up. |
Seems fair.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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