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Zarm R'keeg
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Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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Location: PA
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 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. This thread certainly mutated from the first page.  I was just gonna pop on and say 'While I share Whill's principle-based objection to Ahsoka (in that there is no CW-external evidence, including ROTS itself, that he'd ever had a padawan), and add to it a personal dislike of the character, all indications are currently that she survived... and I would say that we have to wait for the end of Rebels before concluding that they're not going to follow up on her fate, as I suspect they won't be able to resist having her guest-star there.'
Which is a very dense little paragraph, really.
But, to add to the ongoing thread- we discussed elsewhere how I seem to be from a different Star Wars 'camp' than you guys originated from... and I can tell you that in my fandom circles and the podcasts I listen to, Anakin's instantaneous turn in ROTS is a frequent subject of ridicule. (As is how much Stover managed to smooth it out in the sublime ROTS novelization). They must be very different circles indeed, DougRed4, if this is the first time you've heard that criticism... I've heard (and said) it on practically a weekly basis for the last decade.*
| Whill wrote: | In any EU media at the time there was no mention of Anakin ever having a padawan. In RotS, there was no mention of Anakin ever having a padawan. Then, after his film saga is complete, Lucas envisions a new Clone Wars show and invents T-canon to retcon Star Wars. 3 years of continuity was sent down to the garbage compactor and smashed into one month. Anakin now becomes a Jedi Knight mere weeks after Yoda felt him in such terrible pain across the galaxy. Soon after that Yoda found out about Anakin being plagued by nightmares about the source of his attachment and cause of his fear of loss, before he lost her. And literally a few days after Anakin is promoted, Anakin is assigned his own padawan which he now has for most of the war.
It made a lot more sense the first time. Anakin did have to become a Jedi Knight at some point because the truthful Obi-Wan ghost in RotJ told Luke that Anakin was a Knight. In ANH, Vader said, "When we last met, I was but the learner." Well, Anakin technically couldn't have still been a padawan learner when he last met Obi-Wan because he was a Jedi Knight before he was a Sith, but Vader's statement in ANH in light of Obi-Wan's statements in RotJ make the most sense meaning that Anakin had not been a Jedi Knight for long before his last meeting with Obi-Wan. And Anakin having his own padawan learner for years before his last meeting with Obi-Wan prior to the Death Star makes his statement about being 'but a learner' a nonsensical for Vader to say.
For RotS and the EU at the time, Lucas made the most sensible plot decision regarding Anakin's apprenticeship and knighthood with respect to the previous film films released. Then, as a complete afterthought to his completed film saga, Lucas pushed Anakin's knighthood back 2.5 years to right after the tragedy of AotC, and gave him his own padawan almost immediately. That's what's very heavy handed like a GM forcing an outcome on his players! |
This is an excellent summary of my objections to the character, too- better than I could have put it. Well-said.
| DougRed4 wrote: | | "Han was the only one who shot!" |
| Whill wrote: | | [All versions of ANH are still PG, so Lucas should just let me do my job as a parent and guide my children regarding the moral ambiguity of Solo's character. It's part his character arc to change from mercenary to Rebel hero. |
Amen, brothers! 8)
| Whill wrote: | | Ewan McGregor was only about 26-32 and he was totally awesome! His prequel performances completely made me believe that he would grow old into Alec Guiness. Thank the Force the prequels at least had Ewan McGregor and Ian McDiarmid! |
Agreed. I think the prequels had the same problem facing TV's Once Upon A Time- the directors call for a stylized, other-worldy type of performance in which normal real-world emoting is eschewed in favor of something more fairy-tale or Shakespearean. Some actors- who are good actors generally- just can't adapt to that style. Some standouts (and those are exactly the two I'd have picked) are able to adapt their performance to the required style. The rest aren't really bad actors- just incompatible with the style being demanded of them.
| Whill wrote: | | Other than Greedo and a few "Whatever, George" utterly inconsequential changes (like adding more rocks to Artoo's hiding place in the Jundland Waste), I'm with Doug in being pleased with most of his changes to the films themselves. |
It occurred to me the other day that the purist-objections seemed to mostly fall under an animate/inanimate divide. For instance, most fans (myself included) love the changes to places- Battle of Yavin, new Cloud City, Death Star/Alderaan explosions. However, the changes to people- Greedo shooting, silly comic relief in Mos Eisley, new musical number, Hayden in ROTJ, Fett's voice- tend to be the contentious ones. I wonder why...
| Whill wrote: | | and never refer to Anakin ever having a padawan in the new films. That's all I'm asking! In the name of the Force, we pray. Amen. |
Yes! Please! Even wrapping things up in Rebels so that her story is OVER would be preferable to a film-induction.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Especially since the prequel ended up making just about anything said by Obi-won to have been a lie, omission, or told from " a certain point of view." |
It is entirely unjust how Obi-wan has become the fall guy for everything that Lucas didn't bother to keep straight in writing the prequels.
*Slight hyperbole to communicate the casual familiarity that it has. 
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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een a lie, omission, or told from " a certain point of view."[/quote]
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: |
It is entirely unjust how Obi-wan has become the fall guy for everything that Lucas didn't bother to keep straight in writing the prequels.
*Slight hyperbole to communicate the casual familiarity that it has. |
LOL! Actually Yoda deserves a good bashing too. He goes into hiding for twenty years then drops everything into Luke's lap.
Back on topic, I recall a throwaway bit in on of the Clone Wars episodes, the one that forshadows Anakin's fall to the Dark Side - even gives a glispe of Vader complete with heavy breathing. In that episode we see a ghostly Adult Ahsoka, who claims that she didn't get to reach adulthood becuase of some Anakin did. The episode seemed to imply that Anakin?Vader killed her.
Yeah, that was a terrible description, I barely remember the episode. Sorry. I'll try to hunt down the episode. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it was Ghosts of Mortis |
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Kira Firestorm
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Joined: 17 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:11 am Post subject: |
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Well this thread went sideways while i was away...
So, even after season 6, we still no nothing to her future, she walks away from the Temple, gives over her head jewelry that signifies her as a Padawan, and then with the closure of the Clone Wars, as Disney now own the rights, we no nothing but speculation.
Its really a shame actually, am hoping that Lucas will have a say atleast in the new series of Rebels, that she makes a appearance and somehow lives out her life.
Would be a shame to see her killed off.
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Theodrim
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | LOL! Actually Yoda deserves a good bashing too. He goes into hiding for twenty years then drops everything into Luke's lap.
Back on topic, I recall a throwaway bit in on of the Clone Wars episodes, the one that forshadows Anakin's fall to the Dark Side - even gives a glispe of Vader complete with heavy breathing. In that episode we see a ghostly Adult Ahsoka, who claims that she didn't get to reach adulthood becuase of some Anakin did. The episode seemed to imply that Anakin?Vader killed her.
Yeah, that was a terrible description, I barely remember the episode. Sorry. I'll try to hunt down the episode. |
Speaking of Yoda...there's also a scene right at the end of season 6 on Netflix that heavily alludes to Ahsoka's death at the hands of Vader. There's also a murmur or two the Dark Disciple novel may be dealing with the subject. Either way, Disney seems to be somewhat reticent to bring too much of the Clone Wars series into Rebels, so they may be tying Lucasfilm Animation's hands on the subject.
Though, I will add a bit about the campaign I'm currently running which has one of the PC's actually being trained by a redeemed Ventress. I'm not touching what happened in the game with a ten-meter pole as I want it to be one of the big "secrets" to leave my players wondering, but the notion I have in mind builds on "The Wrong Jedi" arc -- Ventress and Ahsoka end up finding each other after the execution of Order 66, and Vader hunts them down; either Ahsoka sacrifices herself to save Ventress, or Ventress tries (but fails) to save Ahsoka, but either way Ventress ends up firmly on the path to redemption. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Kira Firestorm wrote: |
Its really a shame actually, am hoping that Lucas will have a say atleast in the new series of Rebels, that she makes a appearance and somehow lives out her life.
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That would be something to see her show back up in Rebels. I've only seen a couple of episodes, but from what I understand it wouldn't be too far outside their MO.
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DarthOmega
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Joined: 27 Feb 2014
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Location: Backside of WA state
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, those saying they won't kill major characters on a cartoon really need to sit down and actually watch TCW from beginning to end. They kill plenty of characters, not the least of which is Savage Opress (Darth Maul's brother), Duchess Satine (a love interest of Obi-Wan's and ruler of the Mandlorians. Interesting considering another thread about Jedi and relationships going on right now), and at least a couple of Jedi masters like Even Piell and Adi Gallia (which was kind of a shocker, and to me at least, seemed like they kind of made her death a throw-away scene). Hell later on Ahsoka takes to beheading people on a semi-regular basis, and she drops the cutesy attitude and 'Sky-guy' comments. Seriously, if you can get past the first season and a half or so, it gets a lot darker in tone and a lot better.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthOmega wrote: | | By the way, those saying they won't kill major characters on a cartoon really need to sit down and actually watch TCW from beginning to end. They kill plenty of characters... |
Indeed. Even those that already had an established death scene elsewhere in the timeline.
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DarthOmega
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Keep in mind that Lucas had a direct hand in TCW, and none of the deaths contradict any of the deaths in the movies (other things being retconned or contradicted is another story). If one of those characters died in a novel or comic, and they died in TCW, then the TCW death takes precedence as it was only a half-step below the movies in canon.
Of course now with the Disney take over, EU isn't canon at all and TCW still is, despite TCW borrowing heavily from the EU from time to time. Makes me wonder... does that mean that the EU stuff that was used in TCW canon still?
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Read my gaming blog at www.alteredrealities.net - click on the tabs near the top for the different pages that usually have character bios and other info. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthOmega wrote: | | Keep in mind that Lucas had a direct hand in TCW, and none of the deaths contradict any of the deaths in the movies (other things being retconned or contradicted is another story). If one of those characters died in a novel or comic, and they died in TCW, then the TCW death takes precedence |
Of course we have Jedi Master Even Piell who had originally survived Order 66 in a 2008 EU novel but then was killed during the Clone Wars in a 2001 TCW episode which then took precedence.
| DarthOmega wrote: | | TCW... was only a half-step below the movies in canon. |
Half-step below on paper anyway. I find that TCW unfortunately overrode the films in significant ways.
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Of course now with the Disney take over, EU isn't canon at all and TCW still is, despite TCW borrowing heavily from the EU from time to time. Makes me wonder... does that mean that the EU stuff that was used in TCW canon still? |
Yes, everything in TCW is story group canon, regardless of whether it's origin was in TCW or it had previously appeared in the EU.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| DarthOmega wrote: | | If one of those characters died in a novel or comic, and they died in TCW, then the TCW death takes precedence as it was only a half-step below the movies in canon. |
*Grinds teeth* Yes, so they keep telling me. I wasn't complaining about canon violation, just being snide about what I consider to be a jerk move.
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Of course now with the Disney take over, EU isn't canon at all and TCW still is, despite TCW borrowing heavily from the EU from time to time. Makes me wonder... does that mean that the EU stuff that was used in TCW canon still? |
Yes. TCW and Rebels are basically the 'green card marriage' of Star Wars canon. Anything used there is canon. So, even though he's hardly the same character, Quinlan Vos is canon- just, only the TCW personality. Likewise, even though the ISB is an EU concept, it is canon since it's been used in Rebels.
That's why I want Rebels to start getting a little more adventurous with the alien species they show- I want my Barabael back in canon, darn it! And anything they choose to use gets canonized. (Same with any of the novels and comics from here on out, as in new canon policy, everything is of equal weight. So... hope their continuity-check staff are ready for a particularly strenuous job, because it's ALL supposed to line up.)
| Whill wrote: |
Half-step below on paper anyway. I find that TCW unfortunately overrode the films in significant ways. |
*Sigh* Yeah... sad but true.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Yes. TCW and Rebels are basically the 'green card marriage' of Star Wars canon. |
Green card, LOL. I like that.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | So, even though he's hardly the same character, Quinlan Vos is canon- just, only the TCW personality. |
IIRC I read that Quinlan Vos was created out of watching one of the background characters in TPM on Tatooine and retroactively declaring him to be a Jedi. I think it's stupid that Qui-Gon just walked right by another Jedi and neither one of them knew about each other, or they intentionally ignored each other. I hadn't heard of this character until after "Master Vos" was mentioned in RotS and I wanted to find out who that was.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Whill wrote: |
Half-step below on paper anyway. I find that TCW unfortunately overrode the films in significant ways. |
*Sigh* Yeah... sad but true. |
We do agree on a few things!
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gallandro
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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There's a lot of speculation that Ahsoka is Fulcrum, the mysterious contact of the Ghost crew in Rebels. Some sites had done some pitch modulation of Fulcrum's voice, and it certainly sounds like Ashley Eckstein.
Also, about a month or so ago, Matt Lanter (Anakin), posted on Twitter that he and Ashly had just wrapped up a recording session at the old sound studios they used for Clone Wars and Rebels. There's some speculation that Lucasfilm may be releasing more nearly finished Clone Wars arcs given the series wild success on Netflix. Ahsoka was to have been featured in at least one big arc. |
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gallandro
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
IIRC I read that Quinlan Vos was created out of watching one of the background characters in TPM on Tatooine and retroactively declaring him to be a Jedi. |
Quite true. The existence of that man was always canon, but his name being Quinlan Vos and his occupation being a Jedi is now canon solely due to TCW. I think he was supposed to have not revealed himself to Qui-Gon because he was on an undercover mission or somesuch... but thanks to Legends, I guess he was now just... being rude? For all we know, he's no longer that guy on Tatooine, but just looks kinda like him. Canon is a very large open book nowadays...
I have definitely heard the Fulcrum rumors. I hope it isn't so; I'd love to see canon branch out more on its own or grab more things from Legends (folks like Garm Bel Iblis, and numerous other rebelion-founder figures), rather than continue to insularly reference only existing canon works and Mcquarie sketches. (Plus, I don't want Rebels to legitimize a connection between itself and TCW). But, considering the unresolved nature of her fate, having her as Fulcrum probably WOULD make sense for the franchise, whether I like it or not.
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