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aegisflashfire
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 Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| klhaviation wrote: | | aegisflashfire wrote: |
I have always interpreted racial maximums on attributes as actual maximums (not maximums at character creation). I'm not aware of any cases where those are exceeded. Human max Dex is 4D, yet this example suggests exceeding it. |
Page 29... second column:
There is a limit to how high an attribute can go — a person can only be so smart or strong. At the end of the training time, the character rolls the new attribute die code. The gamemaster must roll the attribute’s maximum (as listed in the species description in “Aliens”).
If the character’s roll is equal to or less than the gamemaster’s die roll, the character’s attribute goes up.
If the character’s roll is higher, the attribute doesn’t go up and the character gets half of the Character Points back.
Example: A player’s human character has a Dexterity of 4D and wants to improve it to 4D+1. After spending 40 Character Points and training, the player rolls the new Dexterity of 4D+1 and gets a 17.
The gamemaster sees that the human maximum Dexterity is 4D; he rolls 4D and gets a 15. The character’s Dexterity does not improve, but the character gets 20 Character Points back. If the player had rolled less than a 15, the Dexterity would have increased to 4D+1. |
Okay. Here's where I have a problem with this. (and its not your fault) 2nd Edition (not 2ndRE) did not give this example. It kind of defeats the purpose of a racial maximum. 2nd edition is the book I'm most familiar with, and its definitely referred to as a racial maximum. I always interpreted it as a hard-and-fast rule that you couldn't exceed racial maximum. Certainly *NONE* of the advanced characters we see throughout any of the books exceed racial maximums without cybernetics.
I strongly suspect that the 2nd RE people threw that example in there either by mistake or to cater to D&D players who wanted to exceed that 18 starting max.
To me, the word 'maximum' implies exactly that.
But at least I understand why that wasn't in my head. The specific example was not in 2nd edition, only RE which I am less familiar with.
I think it also contributes to the general feeling that PCs are overpowered in the high end game if they never take damage from having a 6D str.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with you about species maximums, but it's not an issue with my game because I feel the whole mechanic of raising attributes is severely broken and I completely eliminated it from my game. I remember the first time read that rule in 2E and I was like, ah, no thanks. In my game, players should allocate their PCs' attribute dice carefully because whatever they pick in character generation (and get approved), they're stuck with. The mechanic of raising attributes completely unnecessary for the functionality of the game anyway. 18D is enough. If you want to get better at a whole category of skills, then just raise the skills individually in a much more game-balanced way. That's my two credits.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| aegisflashfire wrote: |
Okay. Here's where I have a problem with this. (and its not your fault) 2nd Edition (not 2ndRE) did not give this example. It kind of defeats the purpose of a racial maximum. 2nd edition is the book I'm most familiar with, and its definitely referred to as a racial maximum. I always interpreted it as a hard-and-fast rule that you couldn't exceed racial maximum. Certainly *NONE* of the advanced characters we see throughout any of the books exceed racial maximums without cybernetics.
I strongly suspect that the 2nd RE people threw that example in there either by mistake or to cater to D&D players who wanted to exceed that 18 starting max.
To me, the word 'maximum' implies exactly that.
But at least I understand why that wasn't in my head. The specific example was not in 2nd edition, only RE which I am less familiar with.
I think it also contributes to the general feeling that PCs are overpowered in the high end game if they never take damage from having a 6D str. |
But in real life there is no such thing as a "racial" maximum. Realistically the max for a given stat is loosely limited by race, and more specifically limited by the individual.
Realistically a 40kg guy is not going to have the same STR max as a 100kg guy. He just doesn't have as much muscle mass.
I think thge loose cap in the RAW works fine. It takes months of training for the roll, it's risky, and some CP are lost if the roll fails. In play I've never seen anyone get very far over "max" this way. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | aegisflashfire wrote: |
Okay. Here's where I have a problem with this. (and its not your fault) 2nd Edition (not 2ndRE) did not give this example. It kind of defeats the purpose of a racial maximum. 2nd edition is the book I'm most familiar with, and its definitely referred to as a racial maximum. I always interpreted it as a hard-and-fast rule that you couldn't exceed racial maximum. Certainly *NONE* of the advanced characters we see throughout any of the books exceed racial maximums without cybernetics.
I strongly suspect that the 2nd RE people threw that example in there either by mistake or to cater to D&D players who wanted to exceed that 18 starting max.
To me, the word 'maximum' implies exactly that.
But at least I understand why that wasn't in my head. The specific example was not in 2nd edition, only RE which I am less familiar with.
I think it also contributes to the general feeling that PCs are overpowered in the high end game if they never take damage from having a 6D str. |
But in real life there is no such thing as a "racial" maximum. Realistically the max for a given stat is loosely limited by race, and more specifically limited by the individual.
Realistically a 40kg guy is not going to have the same STR max as a 100kg guy. He just doesn't have as much muscle mass.
I think thge loose cap in the RAW works fine. It takes months of training for the roll, it's risky, and some CP are lost if the roll fails. In play I've never seen anyone get very far over "max" this way. |
If anyone would like, I can split this off of the errata thread and we can talk this out in the official rules forum. Shall I do that for you guys? I mean, if it's confirmed that it's not an error in the rules that were printed in the REUP, then it's a discussion of whether we like the rule or not.
Just trying to be helpful. 
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klhaviation
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, the Attribute cap rules will stand as written. Debating the necessity of the rule is a worthy endevor, however it is not errata. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Done!
Debate away, gentleman!
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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I would allow characters to raise Attributes if they really wanted to, within reason, but not one of my players has ever even brought this up, being as expensive as it is.
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Kytross
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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I've raised attributes but never above species maximum, but I'm not against it.
Raising attributes is expensive and time consuming. It rarely comes up and if my players really want to do it I'm going to let them try so they can have a good time. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | I would allow characters to raise Attributes if they really wanted to, within reason, but not one of my players has ever even brought this up, being as expensive as it is. |
Only once did I ever have a player that raised an attribute. My wife started a character with a Per of 2D+2. Her starting dice she put into things like Search for 3D+2, Sneak 3D+2, and the like. Then over a couple of adventures she bumped up the attribute to roll the skills over to the next highest D all at the same time.
In the end, I think she really wanted a 3D perception, and was just going to try to feel like she was getting the most bang for the buck while she was at it.
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aegisflashfire
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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I just don't see it. I don't think this was the original intent of the rule.
I think just increasing to 4D if human was supposed to be risky. If this was actually intended then surely some of those uber experienced NPCs and canonical characters would have attributes over their racial maximum.
Why even call it a racial maximum? Maximum implies limit. There reaches a point where no amount of training will exceed the physical limitations of the <insert species> body.
There exists a complaint that at the high end PC's become totally overwhelming. I never understood the complaint until I saw this rules interpretation. (I had always just dismissed it as a typo) I mean, a 5D+2 blaster rifle is a threat to any PC playable race even with armor and unlimited dice.
That just isn't so this way. A human character could theoretically max out at 23D+1 Strength. (more if you roll wild die in here) That makes them able to PUNCH a Death Star and destroy it in a single blow.
Now granted thats a hell of a lot of CP, so we'll consider 5D Str. (for the pricy but not unachievable 120 CP and a couple of lucky rolls) That makes them immune to most blaster pistol bolts.
Frankly the BEST thing about Star Wars is that even a single blaster pistol is a threat to an unprotected human no matter what their experience. Someone pointing a gun at your character should never be something you can just ignore.
I would argue that the no-hard-limit interpretation of the rule is precisely what breaks the high end game.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:41 am Post subject: |
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While not official, most groups i have been in which HAVE allowed that rule, only let you go 1d above max.. period. Me, i usually let attributes get raised to max only. You need cybernetics or bioware to go up further.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| aegisflashfire wrote: | I just don't see it. I don't think this was the original intent of the rule.
I think just increasing to 4D if human was supposed to be risky. If this was actually intended then surely some of those uber experienced NPCs and canonical characters would have attributes over their racial maximum.
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While I agree with your ruling as a house rule, I'm not sure I can say that this good idea is what the designers intended. I've looked at both 2E and R&E, both of them talk about rolling the species max die code and comparing the two numbers. R&E adds an example showing how that works PLUS adds additional risk. To say that the intended something different than they directly state (simply because it is a good idea) I think goes too far.
The lack of examples of high-end NPCs having that trait is just that, a lack of NPCs with that trait. NPC designs are generally not intended to show how rules work. I've found a human NPC that had (through injury) lowered his Dex below 2D. I don't think this was an illustration of how to injure PCs, but just a representation of a character.
| Quote: |
Why even call it a racial maximum? Maximum implies limit. There reaches a point where no amount of training will exceed the physical limitations of the <insert species> body.
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Yeah, that's why I would house rule it the way you do. Not that its ever come up.
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There exists a complaint that at the high end PC's become totally overwhelming. I never understood the complaint until I saw this rules interpretation. (I had always just dismissed it as a typo) I mean, a 5D+2 blaster rifle is a threat to any PC playable race even with armor and unlimited dice.
That just isn't so this way. A human character could theoretically max out at 23D+1 Strength. (more if you roll wild die in here) That makes them able to PUNCH a Death Star and destroy it in a single blow.
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This makes me laugh. If I had 23D+1, I would probably ask the GM, "Can I make a lifting roll to overturn the Empire?" At the same time, let's be practical. I don't know what the statistical probability would be of even getting 5D+1. If you're using the R&E, that's going to be a lot of lost character points from rolling higher than the GM.
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Now granted thats a hell of a lot of CP, so we'll consider 5D Str. (for the pricy but not unachievable 120 CP and a couple of lucky rolls) That makes them immune to most blaster pistol bolts.
Frankly the BEST thing about Star Wars is that even a single blaster pistol is a threat to an unprotected human no matter what their experience. Someone pointing a gun at your character should never be something you can just ignore.
I would argue that the no-hard-limit interpretation of the rule is precisely what breaks the high end game. |
I think that you've made a good case for this being a house rule. However, if you're exegeting even the 2E, I don't see how this is a solid conclusion based on the text.
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Attribute Maximum
At the end of the training time, the character must roll to see if their attribute actually went up. The character rolls their current dice for the attribute, while the gamemaster rolls the maximum attribute die code for the species for that attribute (see Section 7.1 under "Aliens"). If the character's roll is equal to or less than the gamemaster's die roll, the character's attribute goes up by one pip. If the character's roll is higher, the attribute doesn't go up and the skill points are held in "suspension" until the next adventure.
2E, pg 15
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I mean, I think you're pretty much right, except for the claim that the hard limit is the designer's intention.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| aegisflashfire wrote: |
I think just increasing to 4D if human was supposed to be risky. If this was actually intended then surely some of those uber experienced NPCs and canonical characters would have attributes over their racial maximum.
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In the Special Edition Trilogy Sourcebook on page 44 Palpatine has both Knowledge and Perception of 4D+1
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Kytross
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Imperial Guards have a dex of 5D. Page 13ish of the imp sourcebook. If you're looking for canon.
I'm curious how many CPs you're giving out that this is an issue. And I thought my GMs were too generous with thier CPs. That's not even counting the time it takes.
And 5D STR is manageable. There's a myriad of races with a 5D STR max. And 4D beats 5D often enough to keep your players cautious. In fact, your 4D has to beat their 5D in that final roll or they lose half their CPs and don't get the advance. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: |
The lack of examples of high-end NPCs having that trait is just that, a lack of NPCs with that trait. NPC designs are generally not intended to show how rules work. I've found a human NPC that had (through injury) lowered his Dex below 2D. I don't think this was an illustration of how to injure PCs, but just a representation of a character.
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You also need to take into account some of the books show NPC's with lowered attributes and skills, sometimes even below racial minimums cause of age, or disease. BUT never put out rules for how this happens.
| Quote: | | And 5D STR is manageable. There's a myriad of races with a 5D STR max. And 4D beats 5D often enough to keep your players cautious. In fact, your 4D has to beat their 5D in that final roll or they lose half their CPs and don't get the advance. |
Exactly. Iirc, i mentioned in another thread on raising one's attributes, i have seen some players lose out on the raise and CP spent, cause they didn't beat me.
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