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shootingwomprats
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 Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:22 am Post subject: Kashyyyk Time Line (19 BBY through 5 ABY) |
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I am preparing to run my first post Endor game. I am not as familiar with the time following the Battle of Endor or Kashyyyk for that matter. In all the years I have GM'd I have never taken my players there. I guess it was so well documents I didn't want the hassle of learning it in the level of depth required so my players didn't trip me up.
Below you will find the time line for major events involving Kashyyyk. It starts after Order 66 and ends in 5 ABY. Dates are canon for Legends.
"Z" denotes this is canon but could not find a date associated.
"a" are entries for my campaign, which has the Battle of Endor take place above Kashyyyk, which was the better of the two ideas by far. Entries can easily be removed.
Comments, additions, suggestions or criticisms welcome.
19 BBY Kashyyyk placed under martial law.
-------- Vader comes to Kashyyyk hunting Jedi and attacks Kashyyyk this leads to a Wookiee Uprising
-------- Clone troopers attempt to land, many are shot down by abandoned CIS weaponry.
-------- Vaders lands and kills the Jedi Siadem Forte and Iwo Kulka then orders the bombardment and interdiction of ships as Wookiees attempt to escape.
-------- Clone troopers take control and occupy Kashyyyk.
-------- Vader comes back to Kashyyyk to find yet another Jedi.
-------- Vader and troops meet heavy resistance from the Wookiees.
-------- Jedi Roan Shryne killed.
-------- Wookiees enslaved.
Z. ----- At the suggestion of slavers from Trandosha Imperial authorities open Kashyyyk for slave trading.
Z. ----- (17 BBY) Hundan Darrc transfers to Kashyyyk, rising in rank rapidly he would later become planetary governor.
2 BBY Admiral Peccati Syn promoted to Grand Admiral.
1 ABY Kashyyyk is subjected to a long orbital blockade, door-to-door curfew.
-------- Imperial governor of Kashyyyk Hibdane Darcc rules from a private palace, appoints Trandoshan slaver Pekt to oversee the slaving operation,
Z. ----- Avatar Orbital Platform operational.
-------- Avatar Orbital Platform attacked by Wookiee freedom fighters.
4 ABY Deathstar II destroyed, Palpatine and Vader killed.
a. ------ Luke lands one Kashyyyk's moons to bury his father Anakin.
a. ------ Luke meets up with Rebels on the moon.
a. ------ The Alliance fleet prepares to attack and free Kashyyyk when a large Imperial battle group arrives in-system.
a. ------ The group is commanded by Grand Admiral Peccati Syn who recognizes something awful has happened to the Emperor and Vader.
a. ------ Arrival of a second and third group forces the Alliance fleet to flee the system.
-------- Hindance Darrc declares himself Moff.
a. ------ Internal power stuggles within the Empire begin grow, captains are forced to ally with differing power blocs as they vie for control of the Empire.
a. ------ Two battle groups abandon Admiral Peccati Syn.
-------- (8 months after Battle of Endor) The New Republic seeing its chance to strike a major blow to the Empire, gain an ally and garner much needed publicity attack Kashyyyk.
-------- Grand Admiral Peccati Syn confronts Admiral Ackbar above Kashyyyk and is killed, his forces defeated.
-------- New Republic destroys the main reactor of the Avatar Orbital Platform, destabilizing the Platform and causing it to crash onto Kashyyyk.
-------- Liberation of Kashyyyk, Wookiees freed from slavery by Alliance.
-------- Nagai attempt to enslave the Wookiees but are repulsed by the New Republic.
-------- The Empire returns and ensalves Kashyyyk once again.
5 ABY Revolution incited on Kashyyyk, Imperials are defeated and forced to run.
Ewoks are natives of Endor, one of the two colonized moons above Kashyyyk. Though Endor is a gas giant with 9 moons I think this actually works very well wihtout much impact on Legends canon. Well beyond Endor moon being moved above Kashyyyk and the Deathstar II now stationed there as well.
Kashyyyk System
1. Taakarroo (1 moon)
2. Kallalarra (3 moons)
3. Kashyyyk (3 moons,2 are colonized by Wookiees)
4. Gryyyyl (asteroid field)
5. Trandosha (Akoshissss, Wasskah)
6. Alaris (Alaris Prime, 7 moons)
7. Shurr (8 moons)
8. Kuhurrik (25 moons)
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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That's an interesting idea for an alternate universe that seems like it could still work within the context of film canon alone. Some questions...
According to RotS, Kashyyyk is significant world in the Republic (with spacefaring technology), so how does the Empire construct a Death Star above a moon of Kashyyyk without anyone else finding out about it? Mon Mothma indicates that it was a recent discovery. It is one thing to enslave a species and secure a slave world, but it is quite another to keep the construction of a giant space station secret there too. In the canon universe, the Endor system is extremely remote and not an official part of the Empire. It would seem that the resources required to police the Kashyyyk system from investigation would cost a lot more than the benefit derived from cheap labor. The Empire could spend the money on labor droids instead of a fleet of ships. Slavery only makes sense if it is economical, and it seems like it would be without having to also keep a giant space station secret from the galaxy there.
You said that Endor is a "colonized" moon. Do you mean that Wookiees have a colony there that was not seen during RotJ? Or are the Ewoks the colonists from Kashyyyk or somewhere else and have lost their technology?
And why would the Ewoks not have advanced technology in that system anyway? Was trade with the Ewoks prohibited by some Wookiee or Republic non-interference directive?
Also, before the Empire, wouldn't Endor have been easy pickings for the Trandoshan who would hunt mammalian Ewoks for food and sport? Or did the Wookiees patrol the area and protect them from the Trandoshan?
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | That's an interesting idea for an alternate universe that seems like it could still work within the context of film canon alone. Some questions... |
Please keep in mind that the only stuff non-cannon are entries with an "a".
| Whill wrote: | | According to RotS, Kashyyyk is significant world in the Republic (with spacefaring technology), so how does the Empire construct a Death Star above a moon of Kashyyyk without anyone else finding out about it? |
I have gone back and listened to Mon Mothma and Admiral Ackbar from RotJ and there is no Mention of Kashyyyk at all. I did find something really interesting though. The Deathstar was being built in orbit of the moon Endor. Meaning it was probably larger, thus giving it visual cover.
Kashyyyk was important to Palpatine because the wookiees sided with the Jedi's when Order 66 went out. He has specific enmity towards them which is why the slavery and the lockdown on their planet (it has been interdicted at least twice). Also a Grand Admiral is station with his fleet in the system. That equates to a hard nut to crack.
The entire system is shut down by 3 ABBY. This is two years after the Star Wars Christmas Special. With the additional fleet elements moved into the area, the Deathstar II being smaller than the moon in question you can add further detail by saying the three moons that orbit Kashyyyk are unique in that there is always an area that falls into a sensor and visual area. I sort of like this idea as it adds a fantastical location to the Star Wars universe.
| Whill wrote: | | Mon Mothma indicates that it was a recent discovery. It is one thing to enslave a species and secure a slave world, but it is quite another to keep the construction of a giant space station secret there too. |
At some time in the past Endor was set aside as a protected nature reserve by the Galactic Republic and was named the Sanctuary Moon. The recent discovery of the Deathstar II doesn't appreciably change things.
--------- Ffib base established on Endor before the Clone Wars.
22 BBY Seperatist base discovered on Endor by Aayla Secura late in the Clone Wars.
03 ABY Empire establishes a research outpost on Endor.
--------- Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure
--------- Ewoks: The Battle for Endor
--------- Junas Turner and the Ewok Grael are sent to the automated prison station Balis-Baurgh.
--------- Imperial teams arrive and construct the shield generator complex and other installations.
--------- Alliance Captain Junas Turner who had come to the moon to locate the new Death Star is captured.
04 ABY Nagai aided by the Imperial forces of Lumiya make a major assault on Endor, marks the start of the new conflict.
| Whill wrote: | | In the canon universe, the Endor system is extremely remote and not an official part of the Empire. |
Endor is located in the Outer Rim and Kashyyyk in the Mid Rim. So keep in mind Kashyyyk is not in the Deep Core, Core Worlds, Colonies or Inner Rim. Kashyyyk though a huge supported of the New Republic, this does not equate to geographical location to the Core Worlds.
Bottom line is location really makes no difference except to how it affect exposure to the rest of the universe. Essentially how close and easily you can see through the neighbors window.
| Whill wrote: | | It would seem that the resources required to police the Kashyyyk system from investigation would cost a lot more than the benefit derived from cheap labor. The Empire could spend the money on labor droids instead of a fleet of ships. Slavery only makes sense if it is economical, and it seems like it would be without having to also keep a giant space station secret from the galaxy there. |
| Whill wrote: | | You said that Endor is a "colonized" moon. Do you mean that Wookiees have a colony there that was not seen during RotJ? Or are the Ewoks the colonists from Kashyyyk or somewhere else and have lost their technology? |
Canon information on this is nearly non-existent. This leads me to believe that the the colonization was sparse. Perhaps it was too easy for Trandoshans to raid these moons so few would choose to live there.
At the time of RotJ the Empire/Trandoshans have been working the wookiee slave market for twenty-three years. It is quite logical to assume these sparsely populated areas have all been plundered and their populaces either sold into slavery or forcefully relocated to the surface of Kashyyyk to better control the species. This has the added benefit that later on there is no population group on the moons to see the Deathstar II being built.
| Whill wrote: | | And why would the Ewoks not have advanced technology in that system anyway? Was trade with the Ewoks prohibited by some Wookiee or Republic non-interference directive? |
The way I envision the Ewoks in this setting is a previously undiscovered native species who has not been in contact with modern civilization. Keep in mind there are not many Ewoks. At best a few villages. Refer to this short article 6 Isolated Groups Who Had No Idea That Civilization Existed.
| Whill wrote: | | Also, before the Empire, wouldn't Endor have been easy pickings for the Trandoshan who would hunt mammalian Ewoks for food and sport? Or did the Wookiees patrol the area and protect them from the Trandoshan? |
The Ewoks isolated village(s) have not been discovered. We are talking about a species that get 2D for every 1D spent on hide, search and sneak at the beginning of character generation. The entire group is pretty stealthy while in the woods. One could easily envision most Ewoks having those skills in the 5D range in some combination of the three (3D+1, 2D bonus).
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Last edited by shootingwomprats on Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | According to RotS, Kashyyyk is significant world in the Republic (with spacefaring technology), so how does the Empire construct a Death Star above a moon of Kashyyyk without anyone else finding out about it? |
I have gone back and listened to Mon Mothma and Admiral Ackbar from RotJ and there is no Mention of Kashyyyk at all. I did find something really interesting though. The Deathstar was being built in orbit of the moon Endor. Meaning it was probably larger, thus giving it visual cover. |
You seem to be conflating two different movies, SWR. Whill mentioned RotS (Revenge of the Sith) and you responded with RotJ (Return of the Jedi).
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | You seem to be conflating two different movies, SWR. Whill mentioned RotS (Revenge of the Sith) and you responded with RotJ (Return of the Jedi). |
I have gone back and looked. Mon Mothma has a single scene in RoS and that is a deleted scene, so not canonical at all. Furthermore the scene in question mentions nothing about Kashyyyk. In fact it mentions no names of planets at all. The discussion is to garner support for the Petition of 2,000 to Palpatine.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | That's an interesting idea for an alternate universe that seems like it could still work within the context of film canon alone. Some questions... |
Please keep in mind that the only stuff non-cannon are entries with an "a". |
Yes. My response was taking it as a whole because the canon+non-canon parts together still equal a non-canon universe as a whole. And I like how you made clear what parts of your timeline are non-canon.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | According to RotS, Kashyyyk is significant world in the Republic (with spacefaring technology), so how does the Empire construct a Death Star above a moon of Kashyyyk without anyone else finding out about it? |
I have gone back and listened to Mon Mothma and Admiral Ackbar from RotJ and there is no Mention of Kashyyyk at all. |
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: | | You seem to be conflating two different movies, SWR. Whill mentioned RotS (Revenge of the Sith) and you responded with RotJ (Return of the Jedi). |
I have gone back and looked. Mon Mothma has a single scene in RoS and that is a deleted scene, so not canonical at all. Furthermore the scene in question mentions nothing about Kashyyyk. In fact it mentions no names of planets at all. The discussion is to garner support for the Petition of 2,000 to Palpatine. |
Yes, there seems to be some confusion. The mention of Mon Mothma had to do with what she said in RotJ about the Alliance recently learning about the second Death Star under construction. I never said anything even remotely along the lines of Mon Mothma ever stating anything about the moon of Endor or the planet Kashyyyk, nor was I referring to anything about Mon Mothma in RotS.
The planet Kashyyyk was only discussed and appeared in RotS and no, not in the deleted Mon Mothma scenes. I was referring to the discussion in the Jedi Council about the importance of Kashyyyk to the Republic, resulting in Yoda going there to assist in the battle against the Separatist. Kashyyyk is a major hyperspace navigational point in that region of the galaxy, located at a nexus of trade routes. The system would be heavily trafficked (unlike the remote Endor system). Kashyyyk was so important that in 32 BBY a Wookiee senator represented an entire sector in the Galactic Senate (per the TPM film).
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | The entire system is shut down by 3 ABBY. |
I had asked the question because shutting the Kashyyyk system down would have a significant impact on the economy of the galaxy. Shutting down the remote Endor system would have no effect on the rest of the galaxy. That doesn't seem to be an issue for you, and of course you should do whatever works for you in your game.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | The Deathstar was being built in orbit of the moon Endor. Meaning it was probably larger, thus giving it visual cover... This has the added benefit that later on there is no population group on the moons to see the Deathstar II being built. |
Kashyyyk is a terrestrial planet, and based on lunar orbital ranges, the Death Star is big enough that it would likely sometimes be visible to the naked eye from many different angles, so on other moons of Kashyyyk and even on the planet Kashyyyk itself. Just sayin'.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | This is two years after the Star Wars Christmas Special. With the additional fleet elements moved into the area, the Deathstar II being smaller than the moon in question you can add further detail by saying the three moons that orbit Kashyyyk are unique in that there is always an area that falls into a sensor and visual area. I sort of like this idea as it adds a fantastical location to the Star Wars universe. |
Unique and fantastical indeed. Whatever works for you.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Endor is located in the Outer Rim and Kashyyyk in the Mid Rim. So keep in mind Kashyyyk is not in the Deep Core, Core Worlds, Colonies or Inner Rim. Kashyyyk though a huge supported of the New Republic, this does not equate to geographical location to the Core Worlds. |
I have the Star Wars Essential Atlas and I know where the two systems are located. Despite Kashyyyk being located in the Mid Rim, it is still a hub of galactic travel and so it would be hard to shut down and keep a large scale Imperial construction project secret there. But in your SWU, of course you can combine and move systems wherever you wish.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Bottom line is location really makes no difference except to how it affect exposure to the rest of the universe. Essentially how close and easily you can see through the neighbors window. |
This seems to be making the point of my question. Kashyyyk is in a neighborhood with a lot of other houses very close together that can see in each other's windows and cars constantly driving by. If you don't want anyone to look in your house's window, you build your house in a remote location where there are no other houses or cars driving by, like the Endor system.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Ewoks are natives of Endor, one of the two colonized moons above Kashyyyk. |
| Whill wrote: | | Do you mean that Wookiees have a colony there that was not seen during RotJ? |
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Canon information on this is nearly non-existent. This leads me to believe that the the colonization was sparse. |
Sorry for the confusion. You referred to Endor as a "colonized" moon, and I was asking about your alternate universe where the moon of Endor orbits Kashyyyk, not the canon universe. You said the Ewoks are natives of Endor, and if so, who are the colonists in your reference to Endor being one of two colonized moons? Wookiees, although their colony may be small? Or when you said colonized did you really just mean inhabited (by sentient species)?
| shootingwomprats wrote: | Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure
Ewoks: The Battle for Endor
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The Deathstar was being built in orbit of the moon Endor. |
You seem to accept these Ewok TV movies in your personal canon. Although the gas giant that the forest moon orbited did not make it into RotJ, the planet Endor did make it into these TV movies. It is clear the planet that the forest moon orbits is not a terrestrial planet, but in RotS it is clear that Kashyyyk is a terrestrial planet.
And, the apparent surface gravity of both Kashyyyk and the moon of Endor in the films is about the Earth-standard 1g. In sci-fi, habitable moons of gas giants (like Yavin) are common because gas giant moons can be the the size of Earth-sized planets. Earth-sized planets generally can't have earth-sized moons or it would be a double-planet system and not a planet-moon system. For the moon of Endor to be a moon of Kashyyyk but they both have an earthlike composition, Kashyyyk would have to be a very large super-earth, but that would mean it would have far greater gravity than shown. Or, the moon of Endor would have to be a much smaller planet with a much lighter gravity than shown. This is why it makes the most sense that the moon of Endor orbits a gas giant and not a terrestrial planet like Kashyyyk.
Also, the moon the Ewoks live on is not ever referred to as the moon Endor, and it is normally not referred to as simply Endor. It is usually referred to as the Forest Moon of Endor. So from that it would seem to be film canon that the moon the Ewoks live on is in orbit around a planet named Endor.
But of course, in your universe you should disregard anything you wish an make it how you want it.
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Daniel here!
This is Don's creation, first and fore-most. I think it's a great thing, and I had a lot of the same issues with it as the rest of you are. I find it really hard to grok an idea like this in the scheme of Star Wars. However, if I call it as an alternate timeline, I can get it a lot more.
I'd thought of that a lot - alternate realities in Star wars. Then I get a headache and trekbabble starts coming out.
I've read what Don plans to run for tonight's session, and I've got to say it's going to be a good adventure.
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Bobmalooga
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: |
I have gone back and looked. Mon Mothma has a single scene in RoS and that is a deleted scene, so not canonical at all. |
I'm enjoying the discussion and the way this is all working out, but as to anything being canonical it's all about how you feel about it for your game.
For instance, I've used Fixer and Camie as NPCs in my games despite the fact that we never canonically see them. As a matter of fact I have also used Padme's sister as well, with one of my players playing Padme's nephew.
I understand that the conversation (at least this part) has more to do with your proposed timeline, I just thought I would mention that canonization starts and stops where you want it to for your games.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Comments, additions, suggestions or criticisms welcome. |
| Whill wrote: | That doesn't seem to be an issue for you, and of course you should do whatever works for you in your game.
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Unique and fantastical indeed. Whatever works for you.
...
But in your SWU, of course you can combine and move systems wherever you wish.
...
But of course, in your universe you should disregard anything you wish an make it how you want it. |
| Bobmalooga wrote: | I'm enjoying the discussion and the way this is all working out, but as to anything being canonical it's all about how you feel about it for your game.
...
I understand that the conversation (at least this part) has more to do with your proposed timeline, I just thought I would mention that canonization starts and stops where you want it to for your games. |
I hope I made it clear (here and everywhere on the forum) that I completely agree. Each GM is lord and master of his campaign world. No one should ever let canon get in the way of a good time. The way I look at it, Star Wars is already fictional, so how could it possibly ever be wrong to alter fiction for the sake of creating more fiction?
| Whill wrote: | | That's an interesting idea for an alternate universe |
Truth be told, I really like the idea of combining Endor and Kashyyyk into the same system!
Ever since reading that Wookiees were originally created to help the Alliance destroy the Death Star, I've been fascinated with that idea. I understand Lucas' transition from one three-act film to a trilogy of films. I understand why Lucas moved the third act's Death Star battle to the end of the first film. I understand why Wookiees en masse were removed from the first film. I understand Lucas' love for Wookiees making him salvage the idea by putting one in the first film as Solo's copilot, thus creating of the character Chewbacca. I understand Lucas still needing a second Death Star battle for the third film, and wanting the native race that helps defeat the technologically superior Empire be a primitive species, to help convey the recurring trilogy message that technology won't save you. I understand the change from Wookiees because Chewbacca was very technologically adept and not a primitive character from a primitive species. I understand that the freedom of creating a new species allowed Lucas to make them little people to further the David vs. Goliath message of the trilogy (and it gave little actors jobs). I understand the forest moon of Endor keeping the giant trees originally planned for Kashyyyk. I admit I don't really understand Lucas making Ewoks be cute teddy bears, but I don't really have a problem with Ewoks and I still find their antics a little amusing. And I was thrilled that RotS finally gave us the chance to see Kashyyyk and a bunch of Wookiees in a SW film, despite it not being as important to the story as the climax of ANH or RotJ.
For my campaign world I had even toyed with the idea of Wookiees and Ewoks evolving on the same planet as genetically-related species before being separated and transplanted to separate worlds by the Celestials, but I realized that Wookiees are primates and thus are more likely genetically related to humans, and Ewoks are, well, living teddy bears. When I first read the OP of this thread, I was instantly intrigued because of the Wookiee-Ewok connection in the canon story's background. Putting Ewoks and Wookiees in the same system just feels appropriate. I wouldn't make this continuity change for my campaign world, but I still like the idea.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | I think it's a great thing, and I had a lot of the same issues with it as the rest of you are. I find it really hard to grok an idea like this in the scheme of Star Wars. However, if I call it as an alternate timeline, I can get it a lot more.
I'd thought of that a lot - alternate realities in Star wars. Then I get a headache and trekbabble starts coming out. |
But alternate timelines/realities can be so much fun!
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | I've read what Don plans to run for tonight's session, and I've got to say it's going to be a good adventure. |
And that's all that matters.
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cynanbloodbane
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
I admit I don't really understand Lucas making Ewoks be cute teddy bears, but I don't really have a problem with Ewoks and I still find their antics a little amusing. |
That would be MAN EATING TEDDY BEARS! A friend and I have postulated for the last year that the Empire was building the second Death Star in orbit around the moon of Endor because of all the Darkside energy created by those cute little savages eating any other sentient beings they encounter.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| cynanbloodbane wrote: | | Whill wrote: |
I admit I don't really understand Lucas making Ewoks be cute teddy bears, but I don't really have a problem with Ewoks and I still find their antics a little amusing. |
That would be MAN EATING TEDDY BEARS! A friend and I have postulated for the last year that the Empire was building the second Death Star in orbit around the moon of Endor because of all the Darkside energy created by those cute little savages eating any other sentient beings they encounter. |
LOL. Now, they are cute little innocent primitives. Ewoks aren't cannibals because they don't eat other Ewoks, but they thought a droid was a god. They didn't understand that any other species beside them are sentient, at least until the Alliance came and taught them civilization.
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cynanbloodbane
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | cynanbloodbane wrote: | | Whill wrote: |
I admit I don't really understand Lucas making Ewoks be cute teddy bears, but I don't really have a problem with Ewoks and I still find their antics a little amusing. |
That would be MAN EATING TEDDY BEARS! A friend and I have postulated for the last year that the Empire was building the second Death Star in orbit around the moon of Endor because of all the Darkside energy created by those cute little savages eating any other sentient beings they encounter. |
LOL. Now, they are cute little innocent primitives. Ewoks aren't cannibals because they don't eat other Ewoks, but they thought a droid was a god. They didn't understand that any other species beside them are sentient, at least until the Alliance came and taught them civilization. |
Dude... the Ewoks ate the Stormtroopers after the battle. Anything else is pure rebel propaganda.
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"Yes because killing the guy you always planned on usurping and killing anyways in order to save your own kid, totally atones for murdering a roomful of innocent trusting children." The Brain |
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