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DougRed4
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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The confusion D20 players could experience with FFG's game doesn't surprise me at all, but that's because I think the issues go beyond complexity and 'crunch'.
I'm by no means an expert (and arguments about this topic have practically broken the internet, from what I understand, as well as closed down entire forums), but as I understand it, some say that RPGs float between three axis: Narrativist, Gamist, and Simulationist. If you want to read more about GNS Theory, there's a ton out there. My guess is that in addition to complexity, D20 tends towards the Gamist end of the spectrum, while EotE falls more on the Narrativist end.
I don't at all suggest that one of these is "better" than the others. In fact, I've heard it said numerous times that some believe all RPGs have a little bit of all three (and are rarely solidly in one camp or another).
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Nico_Davout
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Nico_Davout wrote: | Well personally I don't understand why any SW gamer would need anything more than FFG!  |
We're fortunate to have your FFG-educated view here in this thread, but FYI, the Rancor Pit is still a SW D6 forum in case you forgot. |
Of course! When I came here I was nothing but a SW D6 learner, now I am the SW FFG master 8) .
| Whill wrote: | | I was surprised by the many cases I came across of confusion, because crunch equals complication so I thought d20 players should be able to handle it with ease. |
I think the problem for d20 players is that d20 rulebooks are written, IMO, clearly and without ambiguous rules. They are complicated, overburdening GMs due to enormous amount of detailed rules and talents for NPCs, but they are clearly written and there is no room for interpretation. You can eat a cake in d4 hours, but you will drink a glass of water in d20+2 minutes. It is all there. The FFG rulebook is different. A lot of things are left vague, unclear, until the end of encounter or as GM wants, etc. A lot of things are not defined and left for GM to decide.
For example talent "Utinni!" that removes setback die from checks to scavenge. Sounds very general and doesn't say too much, even seems to be useless when my player asked me about it. Wrong! It is as useful as your imagination will allow you, and here a person from FFG forum made a nice explanation of this talent: "I can see Utini! Being used when the Outlaw Tech goes down to the local scrap yard or flea market and starts searching or bargaining for those oh, so vital parts. Streetwise to find the right junk dealer, Negotiate to talk that stubborn Jawa down in price, Skullduggery to bust into the locked impound lot, Perception to spot the part you need, any of these could be valid skills to use Utini! To remove set back dice. Think about how, where, or from whom you might obtain scavenged or salvaged stuff. Then remove set back dice to make it easier to get what you want."
So, let's see I can now use this talent when searching (Perception), haggling (Negotiation), looking for a dealer (Streetwise), breaking into junkyard or similar (Skullduggery). Suddenly a short talent changes into something nice. And there are many issues (for some) or possibilities (for me) with the talents in FFG as they are vaguely defined. In d20 you don't have such thing. Talents are for specific, have clearly written purpose. Here it is 'narrative'. Same goes with many rules - can I use medpac during a combat and how many rounds does it take. Sorry, no rule, and this may be something new for the players grown in d20 world where everything is defined, set, described to round by round detail of use. Here it is not. I like such attitude, exactly like in Trail of Cthulhu. Counting bullets in weapon? What for? Is it important for the story? In 90% percent situations no. When it will be (cut off from civilization), then start doing it. And so on, so on. Of course for some such style may be an advantage, for others disadvantage.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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It is one of the things that they've talked about on the Order 66 Podcast (which I still listen to from time to time). The hosts field questions all the time where they feel the need to tell the listeners "to get out of the SAGA midnset" so to speak. The SAGA rules were pretty specific. WIth that system they really had to be. There was always a matter of whether a bonus would stack with another bonus and under what circumstance. If they hadn't, it could easily break the game with all the bonuses that would stack.
With a shift to a different kind of game it requires a different method of reading the rules. So, it stands to reason that there may be some growing pains. And I say this as someone who has been playing the SAGA edition for years.
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Panzerjedi
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | It is one of the things that they've talked about on the Order 66 Podcast (which I still listen to from time to time). The hosts field questions all the time where they feel the need to tell the listeners "to get out of the SAGA midnset" so to speak. The SAGA rules were pretty specific. WIth that system they really had to be. There was always a matter of whether a bonus would stack with another bonus and under what circumstance. If they hadn't, it could easily break the game with all the bonuses that would stack.
With a shift to a different kind of game it requires a different method of reading the rules. So, it stands to reason that there may be some growing pains. And I say this as someone who has been playing the SAGA edition for years. |
Very true.....
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Nico_Davout wrote: | I think the problem for d20 players is that d20 rulebooks are written, IMO, clearly and without ambiguous rules. They are complicated, overburdening GMs due to enormous amount of detailed rules and talents for NPCs, but they are clearly written and there is no room for interpretation. You can eat a cake in d4 hours, but you will drink a glass of water in d20+2 minutes. It is all there. The FFG rulebook is different. A lot of things are left vague, unclear, until the end of encounter or as GM wants, etc. A lot of things are not defined and left for GM to decide...
Here it is 'narrative'. Same goes with many rules - can I use medpac during a combat and how many rounds does it take. Sorry, no rule, and this may be something new for the players grown in d20 world where everything is defined, set, described to round by round detail of use. Here it is not. |
I get what you are saying, but I would think that if the FFG system is so significantly less detailed and defined than d20, that the FFG rule book would be significantly shorter. It's not. For a vague system leaving so much more up the GM, FFG SW still seems incredibly crunchy.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:21 am Post subject: |
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I've also found the rulebook amazingly less fun to read than a number of other systems. I'm not sure why.
Though I did get Dangerous Covenants in the mail, and they've got some really interesting ideas in there. The adventure nuggets in there are perfectly small and vague to be adaptable, and providing sufficient inspiration to fit into an existing campaign.
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Panzerjedi
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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well i have my ffg books up to date.... its not bad....... as a system.... but breaks down with an inexperienced Gamemaster i've found, often.
over all i prefer d6...... but will play ffg sw if i must to get my gaming fix or a friend asks me to play.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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I've gotten a bit behind. I passed on the Jewel of Yavin, and I'm still wanting to get Onslaught of Arda, and Far Horizons. And I know they've got a two more announced for the 4th quarter of 2014.
The Fly Casual smuggler's book sounds like an amazing idea, especially since there is still a lot of room expansion over and above the work done in Platt's Smuggler's guide. Also, FFG's pattern of giving adventure hooks and story ideas have been very valuable. But at least we have until the 2nd quarter of 2015 for that.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | I've gotten a bit behind. I passed on the Jewel of Yavin, and I'm still wanting to get Onslaught of Arda, and Far Horizons. And I know they've got a two more announced for the 4th quarter of 2014.
The Fly Casual smuggler's book sounds like an amazing idea, especially since there is still a lot of room expansion over and above the work done in Platt's Smuggler's guide. Also, FFG's pattern of giving adventure hooks and story ideas have been very valuable. But at least we have until the 2nd quarter of 2015 for that. |
I've got Jewel of Yavin, but also don't have Far Horizons or Onslaught of Arda (I?). I'll ask for those last two for Christmas from my wife. Well, I also don't have the Age of Rebellion core book or GM screen either (all I have of Age of Rebellion so far is the beginner game). I'm still irked about them making so many mistakes in the Edge of the Empire core book that they already published a revised version that is better than the one I bought directly from FFG. Not to mention multiple massive expensive mostly-repetitive core books (and likely repetitive GM screen/supplements), and just an overall oppressively crunchy game system.
But the FFG game does have its good aspects, like the good Star Wars art, occasional decent fluff, and those adventure hooks and story ideas. I'm really looking forward to the Fly Casual smuggler's book too, probably more than all the rest.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
. I'm still irked about them making so many mistakes in the Edge of the Empire core book that they already published a revised version that is better than the one I bought directly from FFG. |
Yikes, please tell me that there is an errata PDF that I've missed. I'd be pretty unimpressed if they had a philosophy of, "Well... just buy the same $60 book a second time," mentality.
I'm getting the core books as they come out. Though, honestly, I think that the game supplements (even without the core book) would be useful to the D6 player just for the settings and adventure ideas. They are oppressively crunchy rule systems, but the supplements have so much good fluff.
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Panzerjedi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Whill wrote: |
. I'm still irked about them making so many mistakes in the Edge of the Empire core book that they already published a revised version that is better than the one I bought directly from FFG. |
Yikes, please tell me that there is an errata PDF that I've missed. I'd be pretty unimpressed if they had a philosophy of, "Well... just buy the same $60 book a second time," mentality.
I'm getting the core books as they come out. Though, honestly, I think that the game supplements (even without the core book) would be useful to the D6 player just for the settings and adventure ideas. They are oppressively crunchy rule systems, but the supplements have so much good fluff. |
Thats largely why i got em. Chesh...... mainly that reason alone
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Nico_Davout wrote: | | Also the latest errata should be there. At least with the 2nd print of EotE rulebook there were changes. |
| cheshire wrote: | Yikes, please tell me that there is an errata PDF that I've missed. I'd be pretty unimpressed if they had a philosophy of, "Well... just buy the same $60 book a second time," mentality.
I'm getting the core books as they come out. Though, honestly, I think that the game supplements (even without the core book) would be useful to the D6 player just for the settings and adventure ideas. They are oppressively crunchy rule systems, but the supplements have so much good fluff. |
I'm pretty sure they would love you to just re-buy the same $60 book again. I'm no longer buying the core books as they come out because of the inevitable corrected reprint that will come out later. But I refuse to buy the EotE core book again so I won't. But I want my AoR core to be the corrected 2nd printing so I'm holding off.
Below is the FFG errata thread (and the OP includes a link to the downloadable FAQ which includes some, but not all of the errata).
http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/85819-eote-core-rulebook-errata/
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. I've seen the errata thread. I was just hoping to see something a little more professional come out of the process.
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Whill
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Panzerjedi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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and ditto.
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