Fast Moving Lightsaber Combat

[Edheldun]

My group has been trying to find a way to improve lightsaber combat. I looked around in the forums but couldn't find anything that I liked for my group, most rules were too complicated and we like to play very fast and loose with a lot of roleplaying during combat. I also wanted something that fit easily into normal combat and captured the speed of lightsabers, mostly in the prequels, so I came up with something that my group is excited to try, though we haven't had the chance to play test it yet.

I also appologize for starting another lightsaber thread, but I didn't want to get another one too jumbled up.

I decided to keep the lightsaber combat skill in the game and most other things unchanged. The change is instead of a character adding their Control dice to damage for LS Combat, they can use them to offset MAPs on actions with their lightsaber. Note, Control dice can not be used on actions outside of LS Combat (running, other force powers) or to exceed the original value of LS Combat with LS and Sense. I also upped the damage on a lightsaber to 6D so that it is more dangerous than a standard blaster rifle.

So just looking at average damage for a character with 3D LS, 3D Sense and 3D Control.

In RAW they would average 6D LS Combat and then have 8D damage, rolling 24-32 average. For an opponent with 3D strength, rolling 9-12 average, suffers 12-23 damage is probably at least incapacitated without CPs.

With my system, a single lightsaber action still has 18-24 on the skill role, but damage is only 6D, average of 18-24 damage. That same character suffers 6-15 damage.

If the force user takes three actions though they roll 3D LS + 3D Sense - 2D MAPs + 1D Control = 5D.
The damage though remains the same for each attack and if all three hit and deal a net 6-15 damage, the opponent could be wounded three time, and incapacitated, to totally dead.

The defending character in a lightsaber duel can still just make one parry role against the attacks, or multiple actions, using Control dice to offset MAPs to use any defensive techniques their form or choice might provide.

If a defending character wants to deflect blaster bolts back at a target, any Control dice not already used to offset MAPs are used to control the bolt like normal.

The rule shouldn't slow down gameplay much, there is no stopping to prep for a duel like other house rules, and keeping a fast pace is important to keeping combat exciting. It keeps things difficult for starting jedi without many control dice, though the permanent 1D bonus to damage may make things easier.
A high level jedi won't be able to deal out endless attacks because it will take learning more and more control die to completely offset the MAPs for each additional action. 2D for 2 actions, 6D for 3 actions, 12D for 4 actions etc. The damage also remains the same, so some of those attacks will have to be concentrated on single opponents.

Thinking about duels in the prequels, they were attacking and parrying many times during one "round" of play. Luke also did a lot of hacking to bring off Vader's hand.

I haven't had the chance to work out how this will affect different lightsaber forms.
I think it will make my players more inclined to use techniques and move around the environment, rather than stand and bash at each other. It should at least limit the amount of "he who hits first wins" that other people have complained about.

It's certainly not perfect. There's nothing to prevent a jedi dealing several attacks to overpower an opponent instead of one huge blow with a lot of damage, and it could lead to wading crowds of enemies without a care.

Mostly, I was looking for feedback about how balanced this might be. I haven't had to deal much with high level jedi or lightsaber duels, so I'm not as familiar with the problems that arise.

[Edheldun]

I just noticed that I forgot about the penalty for keeping up Lightsaber Combat, but doesn't break anything, just lowers the skill rolls a bit more.

[atgxtg]

I think this is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.

If Control offset MAPs then Jedi would essential end up with several "free" actions each round. Now since Sense adds to Lightsaber skill, it means that a powerful Jedi might get off a half dozen or more aatacks without taking any MAPs. Someone like Obi-wan could take a dozen actions without any MAPs!

[Edheldun]

It shouldn't work that way. Maybe I didn't do a good job explaining that each Control die can only be spent on one action.

Obi Wan has 11D LS, 12D Control, and 12D Sense, so a dozen attacks with his lightsaber in one round would look like this if he broke up the control dice evenly:

11D LS + 12D Sense - 13D MAPs + 1D Control = 12D skill roll

For comparison, using RAW lightsaber combat power:

11D LS + 12 Sense -13D MAPs = 11D skill roll

The damage done by each would be 6D and 17D respectively.

[atgxtg]

I'm missing something!

I though if Obi-wan had a 12D Control he could ingore 12 MAPs.
Hoe exaclty does it work? For instance if Obi-0wan has Control 12D what does he get for his 12D? Can't he use more than 1D of Control? Or are the Control dice "spent" like Force points during the fight and don't come back until after the fight? and is he limited to only 1D per round for up to 12 rounds total?

[Edheldun]

You're right that he "spends" his control dice on his attacks. And he gets to spend his full Control value each round. It's 12D control across all of his actions though, not 12D control for each.

If he is taking twelve actions with his lightsaber on a round, each one of those has a -13D penalty. That means he has 12D Control to spend on a total of -156D in penalties.

[atgxtg]

Okay. It's just that nothing else works that way. In that case I think the power probably won't be worth that much. Just keeping LSC up and doing one attack and parry would wipe out 12D worth of Control.

Hmm, I wonder why nobody has suggested just adding Control to Attacks and Sense to Parries? Do that and incorporate one of the optional damage boosting rules and it would probably reign Lightsaber Combat in and mesh up pretty well with what we see on screen.

[Edheldun]

Doing that would certainly fit with the interpretation that Sense is used to get in tune with the Force and anticipate your opponent and Control is using the Force to push the what the body is already able to do. I think that's what WEG was going for by using Sense to hit and Control for damage to begin with, but your proposal seems more reasonable.

Would that kind of limit the amount of offensive ability a Sense heavy jedi had though? They could get some bonuses depending on what lightsaber forms/techniques you allow, but they also won't have TK or Resist Pain and all that stuff. I don't know if you see that as any sort of balance issue.

[atgxtg]

[atgxtg]

Another possiblity might be to swipe for EABA. EABA is an RPG that uses D6s, but it has a "best of" rule. For instance, we could let Jedi add thier Control to damage as per the RAW, but only let them keep the best 5D.

IMO that would reflect the precision and fine control Jedi have in the films. A skilled Jedi is going to average 25-30 damage, but won't get the insane totals possible in 2E.

Ya know, if we dropped MAPS for LSC, and treated the bonus dice added to Lighsaber skill the same way (that is roll Lightsaber plus Sense, keep Lightsaber), it would really keep LSC under control.




It would also make lightsaber forms more interesting. The aggressive forms, such as Form V could up the number of dice kept by 1D and it would be a significant perk.