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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:31 am Post subject: berserker? |
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| Bren wrote: | | Based on his writings, I have a lot of respect for Whill and his style of play shares many similarities with a style that I prefer. I am just playing with logic, the rules, and the films in a way that I hope Whill will appreciate. |
Thanks, Bren. I have a lot of respect for your writings and style as well. Even though we may not agree on everything, I do appreciate the way you play with logic, the rules and the films.
| Whill wrote: | Perhaps, even without a berserker bonus, the Wookiees do more damage in close quarters than bowcasters would, and/or they have a better odds to hit than range combat due to skill and difficulty levels involved.
Or maybe those particular Wookiees on the beach were part of a unit of warriors that specializes in brawling/melee, and the bowcaster "archer" unit was offscreen shooting from a distance.
Or maybe it was strictly a cultural thing that Wookiees prefer to face their enemies head on in close quarters regardless of actually tactical advantage.
There are a lot of possible explainations. |
| Bren wrote: | | When testing theories against each other one often resorts to Occam's Razor, i.e. simplicity as a determining factor. Wookiee rage is, I would maintain, simpler than needed several explanations for the behavior in films |
I used Occam's Razor to cut apart the original text of my "several" explanations for clarity. 8) Although they could be, my presentation of these was not necessarily intended to be taken as a collective in place of the one beserker rage explanation. These are multiple possible single explanations (as indicated by the use of the word "Or"). You may not agree, but I feel each of these are simple explanations, and IMO they are even simpler than beserker rage (at least as it works in RAW).
| Gamer wrote: | The wookies on the beach were certanly not 'enraged' or acted anything of the sort.
They acted exactly like the close quarter brawlers they are.
Wookies do not fly into a total out of control rage at the drop of a hat, loosing your temper is one thing 'enragement' is completely another.
The fluff on beserker rage is pretty specific and ROTS did not show any such enragement, the battle had just begun so the wookies could not have had time to work themselves into frenzy and they certainly didn't behave like they were. |
I have to agree that I do not see the Wookiees on the beach as being uncontrollably raging beserkers. The Wookiee warriors were waiting for the CIS units before they attacked, rallied themselves against their coming enemy with a battle cry, and charged. Now it would be a different story if Wookiee families were having a nice little clan reunion picnic on the beach and then without warning Separatist battle droids suddenly rose of the water and started blasting Wookiee children building sand castles. (Yeah, I did mean that to be a little funny.) I think something like that should and would enrage the Wookiees.
| garhkal wrote: | | Of the scenes we saw of wookies, only the ESB one with Chewie would imo count as a poss going into rage.. |
I've been thinking about it, and I see Chewie's rage in Carbon-Freeze Chamber to actually be ended by Han's intervention. But in the RAW for Beserker Rage, there is nothing in there about anyone else helping the Wookiee to calm down. It is just the Wookiee's penalized Perception roll (1D to1D+1) against a Moderate difficulty when enemies are still present. So I still suspect that this scene is the one that primarily inspired WEG when designing the 2E Wookiee Special Abilities, however the RAW still doesn't fully take my interpretation of the scene into consideration.
So my main two points about BR now are:
(1) The mechanics for BR are just wonky. As SW RPG adventures always have enemies of some sort that will usually attempt to put a Wookiee character (or his life debt owner) in danger, the Wookiee character will find himself in situation that he uncontrollably has to go into a beserker rage which gives a whopping +2D bonus for STR damage to one of the strongest species already and penalizes all non-STR checks until he makes a roll that is impossible without the Wild Die 6 explosion, or all the enemies are eliminated (which reduces the penalty and difficulty but still requires a roll). That severely hampers a Wookiee character's ability to do much of anything else but eliminate the enemies using brawling or melee where STR damage is a factor. That is a broken record of predictabilty and the same scene re-hashed over and over again in every adventure. Bor-ring! What if the Wookiee player wants his PC to do something else for change? React a different way to enemies for once. Use a different tactic. He can't under RAW because of how his rarely controllable rage effects him in common RPG adventure scenarios. It should be no sectret that I'm not a fan of most game mechanics that restrict the PC's (and thus the player's) free will like this. If Wookiees or any Star Wars species had been explicitly determined by films to go into a beserker state, I would not let them be played as PCs in my game. Thus my interpretation of Wookiee saved them as being an available player character species.
And it should be the Willpower skill to determine if the character can end his own rage anyway. At least with that house mod to RAW a Wookiee character could raise his ability to control his rage and thus introduce more variety for reactions and tactics used when endangered by enemies. Willpower could give the character (and player) more free will. I'm not saying this mod would fully validate the mechanic or the inclusion BR in the game for me, but just sayin'!
(2) I don't see evidence in any of the the films that Wookiees even have a beserker-level rage (operating under any mechanics). A tendancy to lose their temper? Sure, I'll buy that. But I think saying that all Wookiees go into the same exact beserker state in the certain situations (which are common in the game) is taking it the "angry" fluff on the species to an unwarranted extreme.
Again, I am not criticizing anyone else's Wookiees. I'm just explaining my personal views in more detail.
| Bren wrote: | | Now let me also be clear, I am in no way trying to argue that the way Whill and his players play Wookiees is wrong. |
To be honest, since 1988 I've only ever had 4 Wookiee PCs in my game that I can produce evidence of or remember right now. But they occassionally appear in my campaigns as NPCs, and my game interpretation of them does not contradict my interpretation of films (my #1 criteria).
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I used Occam's Razor to cut apart the original text of my "several" explanations for clarity. 8) Although they could be, my presentation of these was not necessarily intended to be taken as a collective in place of the one beserker rage explanation... |
Fair point and nice use of the Razor. 
| Whill wrote: | | Again, I am not criticizing anyone else's Wookiees. I'm just explaining my personal views in more detail. |
Same here.
I should also mention that I agree with Whill’s criticisms of the RAW regarding use of PER vs. willpower and the failure to consider whether others can assist the Wookiee to calm down. I neglected to reread the section on Wookiee rage (my bad  ) and just went off of my recollections and how we have played it rather than a strict interpretation of the RAW. It was always obvious to our group that willpower should be useful to calm a Wookiee and especially to avoid going into a rage. Allowing a friend to help calm his Wookiee pal is clearly in keeping with the films and the dramatic possibilities in allowing a person to try to help calm a Wookiee should be obvious and we have used that as well. If a character is willing to stand next to a Wookiee and try to calm him that is an incredibly dramatic scene with an great opportunity for roleplaying and forming character connections which should be included in the game have a chance to succeed. Such a strategy is not without risk since if it doesn’t succeed, well that just made the next target of the rage obvious. Frankly, I am surprised the designers missed this opportunity. As we play it, the difficulty for the Wookiee to calm down is determined by whether the Wookiee is already enraged or not, by the provocation for triggering rage (so the picnic scene Whill describes would make it more difficult to remain or become calm), whether enemies are still present, and for someone assisting - by the relationship to the Wookiee; for the latter we use the relationship table for Force Powers.
| Whill wrote: | | I have to agree that I do not see the Wookiees on the beach as being uncontrollably raging beserkers. The Wookiee warriors were waiting for the CIS units before they attacked, rallied themselves against their coming enemy with a battle cry, and charged. Now it would be a different story if Wookiee families were having a nice little clan reunion picnic on the beach and then without warning Separatist battle droids suddenly rose of the water and started blasting Wookiee children building sand castles. [ze=9](Yeah, I did mean that to be a little funny.)[/size] I think something like that should and would enrage the Wookiees. |
Since the question of Wookiee rage is at issue, I just rewatched the scene on Kashyyyk in RotS. After the meeting with the Jedi Council we see a company of Wookiees on the beach behind a protective metal parapet waiting for the Separatist attack. Many of the Wookiees in the group are armed with bowcasters. The armored and helmeted leader with a staff-like object steps forward and howls, all the other Wookiees stand and howl as well shaking their arms with weapons held outstretched, including the bowcasters. To me this clearly looks like Wookiee warriors psyching up for battle. It is typical of the sort of pre-battle ritual seen in many earth warrior cultures from Maori warriors’ haka dance to Viking berserkers’ shield biting. As the camera angle changes we can see the Separatist forces approaching the beach in the distance. The Seps look quite small so they are perhaps 500m+ away. The Wookiees then charge out to the waters edge while the Seps are still visibly in the distance. The Wooks stand howling and pumping their arms in the air in the open on the beach awaiting the charge of the Separatist forces never firing a shot. The Seps close, a battle droid orders “Now!” and finally we see some defensive fire as Clone troopers step into sight up in the trees and shoot. The Seps open fire as well. When next we see the beach there appear to be far fewer Wookiees, they are mixed with Clone troopers, some of the Wookiees are taking cover and/or firing from trenches or from the parapet and a Wookiee leader signals either for reinforcements or for another advance. It is at this point that we see a pair of Wookiees dangling on ropes from flyers swing down onto a Sep tank, slap a demolition charge on by hand, and leap free just before it blows up the tank. We cut to Yoda who dodges a shot which seems to indicate that the Separatist landing has not been stopped and the scene ends.
Later during the Order 66 Chapter, we see the Sep tanks moving up the beach. The beach defenders have been mostly eliminated and the remaining Wookiees are firing bowcasters or blasters at the Sep droids and tanks from point blank range (about one Wookiee length). One of the Wooks is crouching/dodging and none of them are brawling or meleeing. We also see several of the Wookiee in their dragon-fly like assault flyers strafing the beach. From the aerial point of view it is clear the original defenders have nearly all been wiped. Advancing on the beach are Clone and Wookiee reinforcements, including several Juggernauts.
Several things are observable from these scenes.
(1) The Separatist invasion endangers Kashyyyk and the Wookiee warriors’ lives, families, and homes. This according to the RAW could justify Wookiees becoming enraged.
(2) The large of Wookiee defenders we see on the beach engage in some sort of a pre-battle ritual or display. They do not fire weapons, but instead they leave significant cover to stand in the open on the waters edge continuing their martial display and awaiting the Sep landing. Defensive fire is initiated by Clones and they are the predominant source of fire at this stage of the battle. Even when the Wookiees have a height advantage from their flyers, at this stage they close to place explosives by hand rather than firing blasters. Possibly this is because they do not have explosives that can be dropped or thrown, though that seems unlikely. Certainly in the RAW, slapping an explosive on the side of a tank might be a brawling (STR) skill while throwing one would clearly be a DEX skill.
(3) This initial defense fails. The initial defenders are wiped out, or possibly driven off. The Wookiee defenders that remain are now using bowcasters and blasters (DEX weapons) rather than fighting point-blank droid targets hand-to-hand.
I infer that the Wookiee pre-battle display could be a way of triggering a Wookiee rage, similar to the way Viking berserks were said to trigger their berserk state. Some type of battle frenzy is observed and attested to on earth in many cultures throughout history and in does not seem a huge leap to assume that Wookiees may have found a means of triggering such a state on purpose. These first fighters are likely to be the more aggressive or warrior-like of the Wookiees. Perhaps Wookiees that are particularly renowned for their fighting rage. Alternatively, these may be Wookiees from this village and the reinforcements we later see firing rather than fighting hand-to-hand may be Wookiees from other villages. This attempt to use the rage state to fight the Separatist army hand-to-hand fails. The Seps take the beach, and reinforcements must be sent for. These reinforcements may be less aggressive Wookiees or Wookiees from other villages who, with their families safe for now from this attack may not have sufficient cause for rage or may more easily keep their rage in check. Possibly what we see are the survivors of the first wave who were able to break out of their rage state based on the failure of the rage as a defensive tactic, and they now use distance weapons against the droid army.
One thing I am considering is whether Wookiees should have a skill like Invoke Rage. This could be knowledge of a particular set of Wookiee rituals – specific howls, dance steps, arm waving, meditation, etc. that allow a Wookiee to invoke the rage state. I would see this as a KNO skill, which coincidentally parallels the RAW placement of willpower under KNO. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the detailed breakdown of the Battle of Kashyyyk scene. I did not mean to indicate that it is incorrect to interpret the Wookiees on the beach as going into some kind of "rage". I meant to say that BR is not the best interpretation that works for me. I think freely choosing to Invoke Rage as you described is an explanation that sits a little better with me.
I still don't feel that Wookiee rage of any kind needs any game mechanics in my game, but if you have to have it, then making it Willpower instead of Perception to control and having a mechanic that allows for others to talk the raging Wookiee down makes more sense. Possibilities for that include a Persuasion check from the person attempting to calm the Wookiee, roleplaying it out and the GM judges how that affects the Wookiees chances, or a combination of both.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Thanks for the detailed breakdown of the Battle of Kashyyyk scene. |
You're welcome.  The comments made me wonder if my recollection was correct.
| Quote: | | I did not mean to indicate that it is incorrect to interpret the Wookiees on the beach as going into some kind of "rage". |
I took it the way you intended.
| Quote: | | I still don't feel that Wookiee rage of any kind needs any game mechanics in my game. |
That's consistent with your past comments. I like some mechanics for some character actions, both as a GM and as a player, but I realize that's not your cup of tea as it were. I've played with no mechanics and with fairly strong mechanics and can operate either way nor do I think there is one way that works best for all play groups. As a player, sometimes I know what my character feels and what he will do. Sometimes I don't and I like a mechanic to help decide if the character is more angry than calm, for example. In addition, as my style of play and GMing has moved towards more moral challenges and conflicts and somewhat less physical challenges and conflicts, I find a mechanic useful in making the challenge have a chance for PC failure.
I find using and managing such mechanics works best as a dialog between players and GM. The player may tell me what the difficulty for their character to remain calm should be and if that makes sense we use that and then they roll. The player may instead tell me their character should remain calm for thus and such reasons or be mad for thus and such reasons. I may accept that or adjust the difficulty based on their reasoning.
I really like the idea that one PC may try to help calm another (Wookiee) PC and I like that the result may not be known. That's more interesting and dramatic for me since it is then a conflict and, like in combat, we don't necessarily know how it will turn out. Typically the way this might work in a game, let's say a Wookiee is building up to a rage. Another player intervenes. The player says what her character is going to say. Depending on how subjectively persuasive what the character says sounds to the Wookiee player and to me as GM and depending on circumstances and whether calming or not calming moves the action in an interesting direction, success may be decided by fiat, but more likely a roll may be required. The above factors, along with the persuading PCs relationship with the Wookiee (someone with a life debt will obviously be more persuasive and less likely to get wallopped in the event of failure than will a complete, alien stranger) will determine the difficulty. Then the player rolls her PC's persuasion. Play out the result. It actually takes longer to write up than it usually does to determine.
It's interesting where people draw the lines on what a GM gets to interfere with. Some people think the player, while in play, should make all character decisions freely. Others do not. Some people think the player should have freedom to run any character allowed as a PC by the RAW, others do not. Some people run in organizations where any member can come and run their character in a given game. Others do not allow characters to "drop in" as it were. People sure are interesting. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:31 am Post subject: |
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I could have sworn the Wookies could be calmed down by someone else..
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jmanski
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:55 am Post subject: |
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I thought so too
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Of course Wookiees can be calmed down by somebody else.
It just neglects to say that in the WEG rules.
Probably because it is just so obvious they thought it didn't need to be said. |
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Whill
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