Problems with star destroyers being ... destroyed

[tetsuoh]

Okay so our group ran into a slight dilemma........... Reality

I just got to watch in sheer horror as my rag tag group about to be seized by imperials attempted to run and then the gunner at the controls fired defensively with two fire linked heavy ion cannons and......

wait star destroyers have only 1d maneuverability so ONE controls ionized puts them DEAD IN THE WATER?????????!!!!!!

...... yeap..... it happened.

To all three destroyers once the crew realized that those 6 scale difference dice - meant next to nothing.

And the ships guns aren't even upgraded! they are just two heavy ion cannons firelinked - still starfighter scale - still 4d damage (now 5D with firelinked)

BUT the gunners! ...... you mean the section of gunners that could hit the ship when in their firing arc that only have 4D+2 skill and 4D fire control (2D+2 if manning the ions) versus the 7D+2 piloting 3D Maneuverability +6D to dodge versus the capital scale???

BUT the hull!..... oh yes! 7D + 6D scale difference versus the measly 5D damage of those ion cannons..... the ones that can hit - because the gunner is actually a professional - unlike those apparently military trained imperial gunners?

WELL .... what am I to do when the ship pilot rolls a full round defensive dodge that those poor gunners can't hit? and THEN their gunner takes his 3 actions to hit the star destroyer and does?

Its 13D versus 5D ....... the 13D should win right? well not when the 13D cannot attack back.... sooner or later that 5D is gonna win.

AND THEN (yeah I went there) all that 5D needs is to beat that 13D by 1 point. ONE point.

...........

I'm not upset actually. It felt wrong that it happened though, and I mean WRONG... sure some ties came after then that got trounced because they had to come within range of the other gunners laser cannons... but still...

It was kinda awesome to get to tell my group's crew that they watched the first one carry on dead weight into the moon's gravitational pull, and then the second plow into the third as it tried to maneuver out of the way while bursting flame on numerous sub levels do to the hull mishap of the one on the wild that one rolled...

But what gets me is this....... WHY oh WHY do star destroyers only have 1D maneuverability - a capital grade ship has SO much room for more thrusters. OR why oh why doesn't a capital grade ship get +6D worth of maneuverability versus starfigher scale weapons just for the sake of controls ionized. I mean how many backup systems would they have?.

Like I said.... I'm not actually upset about it, it just doesn't feel right....

[Ral_Brelt]

Not to mention the 72 TIEs that the Star Destroyer has that can still launch with controls ionized. Sure he's a hot pilot but the TIEs can get lucky and drill their little freighter. Also, wasn't there talk about an all out defense ship having issues with turrets firing as the freighter dances and twists around? Aside from turbos there are also tractors. If one of them hits, dodging from there gets quite a bit harder...

[tetsuoh]

Yeah, I went by both of those actually......

The tractors could not hit them.

They encountered numerous ties, even rammed one head on, as the tie fighter rolled a 1 on the wild and crashed into them as they swerved below the destroyer.

And the negative to hit from a full dodging target - I tried that - we could not find a listing of such in the rules at the time - or as of yet.

I plan to institute a -D to gunners attacks based on the maneuverability of the ship - as it is being used at the time.

I doubt I'll have a lot of opposition actually - seeing as how that -3d wasn't gonna be a big loss in the first place - my players still FAR outclass the destroyers gunners....

[Ral_Brelt]

Well, you could have a dedicated crew in a named SD that ends IP as a recurring foe for them. An elite cadre if you will that are better trained than the typical crew.

You said they rammed a TIE...any damage given yo their ship for it? A head on collision adds like 4 or 6 dice to hull damage hits...

For the shots fired was it one or two, maybe four, or did you roll out all the shots in arc, assuming the ISD was attempting to destroy them that is. Other options to consider would take some house ruling, or GM fiat...with so many guns, an ISD could deny areas of space with walls of fire. Thus cordoned off, you could hamper their defensive ability.

You could also launch an Assault Shuttle or two...they fly as transports but soak and hit as caps. They also carry tractors and can hold what...30 stormies?

Another benefit of the big beast is damage control crews that could take out controls ionized quickly. But even if it can't turn, there's no way a little transport can ionize an entire huge war machine like an ISD...that's like saying a flat tire makes your car useless... junk it. The ISD can eat up fighter scale ions for days by common sense...I'd only let it cause tragic system loss to let stupid PCs escape. If they don't jump on it and try to assault the ISD, gloves are off and no punches get pulled.

[Dromdarr_Alark]

What about combined fire from the ISD's starship-scale laser batteries?
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"I still wouldn't have a roll for it - but that's just how I roll."

[tetsuoh]

[tetsuoh]

[garhkal]

First off, yes the cap ships main guns suck in hitting SF scale with the scale difference, BUT since there are a LOT of them, combining 12 into a broadside should be more than enough to Offset the scale difference. Also if the ship is full dodging, it's NOT gaining or losing ground (SU) so the cap ship can and SHOULD be maneuvering to where ITS weapons are still within range, while out of range of any freighter/fighter's weapons.

Secondly, ramming a tie? What were the other ties doing?

Thirdly, nothing says you can't upgrade the skill packages of the gunners on a ship. Man those guns with 6-7D gunnery people.
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[Ral_Brelt]

The Assault Shuttle is in the Imperial Sourcebook, and is geared to go after larger ships in a forced boarding maneuver.

As to rules, yes by the book thats how it works. But the GM has the final say on such...that's what makes him an arbitrator and not just the screen monkey. The intent of the game is for an ISD to be scary to a group of PCs in their freighter. By what you describe as happening, your PCs will start painting silhouettes on their hull now. In universe, the Empire wouldn't spend hundreds of millions of credits thousands of times to build and crew these ships if a freighter with dual ions could take them out...what military would? In short, the rules aren't perfect, common sense must be applied, and if handled in moderation the party and GM all get a more entertaining time out of the game sessions. I'm not attacking the OP or his style, just voicing based off of what I've experienced as a gamer and GM over the decades.

[Bobmalooga]

I've run into issues like this before, although I don't think that I've noticed the 1D man. before. I've had players lucky enough to one shot Star Destroyers with a proton torpedo, I just rolled badly...it happens. If as a GM you fudge to save the players at time, you can't let them have them moments of glory like that.

Now on the other hand I did introduce TIE-Phantoms with shields to stop all the 'TIE-Fighters are useless smack-talk in the game by one of the players. I even went to far as to make the pilots as good as this player who if memory serves was, with specialization in X-Wing, 8D to the other players being 5D-6D range...needless to say, the smack-talk stopped after I shot up his x-Wing and the heavily armed freighter they were flying around.
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[tetsuoh]

The conversation is mote for me now as I'm gonna be ruling that scale applies to controls ionized meaning the capital ships have +6D "Manueverabily" only for the purpose of how ion would affect their controls.


BUT - in retrospect I rolled bad - the players rolled good - The pilot rolled so good that the ISD could not hit them.

Garhkal - I had half the battery going at them on almost every round.

because at any one point only half (if that) in a realistic sense is going to have them within its firing arc.

Command would have changed that - Gunnery Commander's could coordinate 6D worth of the gunners.. so yeah 6D more to hit negates that bonus to dodge.

They were battling ties before the second and third ISD's were even within range to join the fight.

They kept getting destroyed by the other gunner.

Mind you the ties DID hit the group's ship, numerous times even. They just soaked it - they have an upgraded ship - 3D shields and 6D Hull.

And the head on was when they went to weave under a destroyer - a tie was coming the other way and rolled a 1 on the wild for his piloting.

[garhkal]

First off, how were they allowed to get so high a hull-shield combo without the Imperials taking note?

Secondly, SF weapons max out usually around 25 SU, but an ISD alone can hit out to 50 (ion cannons) or 75 (turbolasers) range.. So how were the players in combat with the ties but outside the ISD's range?
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[DougRed4]

It sounds like you handled things well, tetsuoh, and I agree with you that it doesn't really feel 'right' (or match what we saw in the films).

I'd probably rule just as Ral_Brelt suggested, that a smaller ship's ion cannons would only affect a small part of the massively huge Star Destroyer. Even then, beating 13D with a 5D roll should be pretty rare. Your idea to add to the Maneuverability to resist ion cannons is also a decent idea, btw.

In my game it has been tough for Star Destroyers to hit smaller ships, but every once in awhile they roll some 6's (and they have a lot of guns). I've also found the ranges on their weapons to make it tough for smaller ships to face them, as the SD can hit them from ranges where the smaller ship's guns can't touch the bigger vessel.
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green

[griff]

With ion fire I would let there be a great effect on a star destroyer unless the ion weapon was of the same scale. In Empire it took more then one hit with a gaint ion cannon. I wouldn't let a y-wing's ion cannon have any effect on a star destroyer. It would be like trying to electorcute some one by touching a 9V battery to their tongue. I would let a star fighter scale ion cannon disrupt a tuborlaser battery or an isolated system. Even with a group of star fighter scale weapons effects would be minimal.
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"EXECUTE ORDER 67. Wait a minute, that doesn't sound like order 67..... No, wait. Yes, yes it does. EXECUTE ORDER 68" Palpatine's last moments - robot chicken.

[Bobmalooga]