Crossovers: Do's and Donts (discuss)

[willg]

One thing thats been occupying my thoughts is the idea of doing crossovers within RPG...
But DO IT WELL, unlike some of the awful fan fiction that occupies the internet.

Someone said they had a Timelord NPC visit their game for a while...

So Id love to discuss it. Do's , Donts. Etc...

Whats your thoughts, folks...

Its a BIIIIG multiverse...an infinity of infinities...

Basically we'd be discussing travel to the SW universe reality, so that must involve travel through space, time and alternative reality...

Is it possible to have a PC from another reality?

[aegisflashfire]

There are a lot of games that lend themselves to this. Rifts comes to mind. The problem is one of tone & genre and the 'rules of the universe'

To quote an old professor of mine, "Genre tells us what to expect."

Any time you tell a speculative fiction story (aka fantasy/horror/sci-fi) almost your first job, before you get into plot, character, etc is to determine the rules of the universe. What is possible, what isn't.

Can magic bring back the dead? What is the limitation on character power? Can the past be changed? What abilities can sentients have?

Now if your genre is "Anything can exist" (Rifts) then you're fine if you intoduce new mechanics into the story.

So before you go mixing universes, make sure they're compatible. If the rules of one universe don't mix well with the other, the power imbalance between the two of them just breaks your story, and creates too many potential deus ex machina that reduce your story and your ability to tell a story to ash.

I've seen a great Ghostbusters meets Cthulhu mixup game. Why does it work? The power levels are comparable, (Gozer vs whatever Deep One they were fighting) the levels of supernatural effect are similar and they, and the squick of Cthulhu actually was offset nicely by the humor of the Ghostbusters genre. Neither one introduces plot mechanics that are outside the mechanics of the other.


There were also Star Trek meets X-Men crossovers. These are a little harder to justify, but in the end it turned out reasonably well. Cyclops & Storm have similar power levels to Kirk with a Phaser. Dr. (Hank) McCoy and Dr. (Leonard) McCoy have similar levels of medical ability to heal the injured. Fast regeneration isn't outside the power level seen in Star Trek so Wolverine's abilities are ok, and the Enterprise has certainly run across beings with Godlike abilities in the past so all that squares away. Even mutation, genetic supermen, prejudice are themes crossed by both Star Trek & X-Men. So against my expectations, those actually worked reasonably well.


My issues with Dr. Who meets Star Wars are two fold. The first is radically different rules for the universe. The second is one of theme and tone. We'll start with the second.

Dr. Who's theme of I live/everyone else around me dies; the 'lonely angel' as the Girl in the Fireplace names him, is a theme that is absent in Star Wars. The humor element and the Doctor's flash also not present in the Star Wars universe. The Doctor is essentially a man of peace who uses his wit rather than violence against his enemies. Star Wars is all about... you guessed it.. war and direct conflict. Beyond that, the Time Lords wield immense power; the Doctor; via the TARDIS can shred stars, wipe out civilizations, without effort. To use his own words, "the most powerful ship in all the universes"

The next issue is one of power levels. The Doctor's enemies range in power from an arrogant police captain or a lone alien hanging on earth with a tiny bit of advanced technology(Slitheen, countless others), to whole empires with the ability to rearrange the planets in the galaxy (Daleks) to the literal embodiment of evil (Satan) But the Doctor deals with them in kind and typically uses a proportionate level of destruction to what his enemy is capable of. And usually this is accomplished through Talking or subterfuge. All of this is so antithetical to the Star Wars universe; I just don't see it working.

Finally, the time travel element is just so outside of anything that 'feels' star wars. Episodes I-III rely on a collection of secrets. That Palpatine is plotting against the Jedi. A tiny upset to the Xanatos gambit of Palpatine and it all comes crashing down. Even a little bit of time travel makes it possible to undo the Empire in one move. Let the Jedi know: Hey, that Sith Lord who's manipulating the galaxy? That's Palpatine, he's plotting the destruction of the Jedi. Problem solved. No Episode IV-VI.

Time travel makes it too simple, too easy. It changes the rules of the universe, and mucks up your storytelling.

YMMV, but this is one mashup I would stay away from.
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[willg]

I appreciate your opinion, and your insight...

I wasnt planning on using The Doctor, Id use another renegade Timelord but a nice one one less experienced amd less dominating.

This ones TARDIS could be very old and faulty, causing him to go sideways in time, and ended up in the SWRPG universe and get stuck there.

Time travel could be nixed by having the TARDIS Temporal stabiliser get damaged, meaning he was stuck in one era, but could travel in space and even hyperspace.

He could help the rebellion in some capacity, or travel on a tramp freighter as an engineer, trying to get his TARDIS up and running.

Natural abilities? Telepathy...he could converse with Jedi mentally, but not as a forcec user, just a natural telepath.

[aegisflashfire]

It just feels gratuitous and about satisfying the GM's sense of play.
It doesn't help you develop your characters or tell the Good Vs. Evil story. What does this add to your campaign?


There's a rule when writing short stories, that if something doesn't contribute to your overall theme of the story, cut it. no matter how cool or awesome it is. Rule of Total Effect; everything should contribute to the story/theme/characters in some fashion.

Instead, this violates the universe you're constructing, throws in themes that aren't really present, and certainly arent the focus of your story, and tells us nothing about the setting/characters in your universe, but instead adds a completely different universe to it, diluting the effect.
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GM of Falling Star: D6 Star Wars Campaign Podcast

[DirkCorman]

I do get where you are coming from.. And to be honest, I don't think I would do it again..

In fact I'm going to keep both universes separate.. I've got the new AITAS rulebook, so i'm going to create some stuff for that too.

[CRMcNeill]

The biggest obstacle I have found is that two different fictional universes will have a different "feel" to them, for lack of a better word. Star Wars doesn't feel like Star Trek doesn't feel like Warhammer 40K doesn't feel like Farscape, and so on and so forth. To make an effective crossover, I have found it best to decide which universe takes primacy, then use the crossover universe to generate ideas and being willing to alter or remove aspects of the secondary universe that conflict with the primary universe.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[DougRed4]

I just wanted to say, that was some great advice and a thought-provoking post with a lot of fantastic insight into basic storytelling, aegisflashfire.
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green

[willg]

Obviously, the SWRPG rules would take precedent...the character would not be physically vhanged, but rather have his attributes translated into the SW rpg. If we look at the Time Lord RPG system , which was around in the 90s for example, it could translate well.

Look at something thats already statted over on D6 Holocron, the USS Enterprise. Now it doesnt change it get translated , and it warp speeds are given a hyperspace multiplyer equivalant, but it STILL USES WARP DRIVE.

Mr Spock can use telepathy but he isnt using the FORCE.

A phaser blast has the equivalant damage to a blaster but still works as a Phaser.

The universal translator would need time to learn Aurabesh...

All these little things.

In truth, I dont think id use the character, but the idea , that excites and interests me.

After all, what is an RPG game but ideas , luck and the throw of a dice

[willg]

Looking on the net, Ive found a few things that have helped my " Timelord in SWU" thing.

First of all I found a cool character template in the Time Lord rpg. One that fits my ideas.

Secondly, Ive found D6 conversion for the 5th Doctor and another Timelord.

Thirdly, its a given that my character will be from the Pre Time War era when alternate universe travel was possible in a TARDIS.

Also, If I have the TARDIS take severe enough damage, it cant Timetravel for a while, it could Space travel in limited fashion.

Think Pertwee era, when the Doctors TARDIS was pretty much disabled for four years.

Thats the kind of idea, a visitor from another universe, stuck in the middle of a great conflict and overcoming his reluctance to interfere till he is forced to take arms.

[aegisflashfire]

Dice conversions should never be an obstacle. In any conversion system you're going to find something that you disagree with.

You still have not answered the question: What does shoehorning a Time Lord into your Star Wars game do for your story that you can't do already without ripping open your universe?

The reluctant hero getting dragged into a conflict they don't want to fight in? Han? Lando? These characters already exist. And apart from very few episodes (The Snowmen come to mind) Timelords are ALWAYS getting involved, particularly the Doctor. That's one reason they're sometimes reviled--sticking their nose into things.

Thematically: What do you hope to achieve by mixing the two? What commentary does the Doctor/other Timelord offer on the Star Wars universe? What new insight can a Timelord offer? The Timelords work in their own universe because they've been around, seen nearly everything, know how such-and-such species operates. OR they are faced with a total unknown in which case they are more of a victim and forced to "Run" until they can figure it out. Now your Timelord isn't from 'around here' so is going to be forced to 'figure out' the new universe. But that robs players of agency. So at best he/she is a set piece.

Timelord CANT be exposition because he's not from this universe and doesn't know anything.
Timelord CANT be the resolution of the plot unless he's a deux ex machina. (aka, horrible storytelling)


All you're going to do is shred the storytelling framework of the universe you've constructed by introducing a multiverse. As a player I'd seriously consider quitting such a campaign because the GM just utterly shredded my immersion in the universe.

One reason I *LOVE* Star Wars is how hard it worked to be a uniform consistent story. Sure there were mistakes here and there, little things that got shifted nearly always accidentally, but who else would actually employ staff in charge of ONLY maintaining continuity? You want to throw that out the window.

If there is some aspect of the Timelord character you want to include--decide WHY besides your own vanity. I urge you to take that little bit of inspiration and shove it into a Star Wars universe character. Want someone close to 1000 years old? Yoda's species works as do a few others. Want someone who's mildly telepathic? Jedi/force sensitives fit the bill. Want someone who has regeneration abilities? A number of species have fast healing. Or create your own.


Lastly: Star Wars is about a galaxy at war. The 'camera' focuses on a few individuals key to that war.

Doctor Who is about a MAN and the people he surrounds himself with.
You cannot introduce a Time Lord character without putting the spotlight on HIM/HER --instead of your players. You're the GM: Its not ABOUT you. Its about the players/Characters. Its selfish to pull the spotlight with this wish-fulfillment character. Content yourself with ownership of the universe, let the players be in the spotlight.
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GM of Falling Star: D6 Star Wars Campaign Podcast

[willg]

Nice.
I say " heres an idea..what if..." an excercise in thoughts.

I get a dozen or so reasons why I shouldnt, lectures on thematic differences. And get called vain in the process.

[aegisflashfire]

Actually the thread topic was 'dos and donts' I'm bringing up general advice to GM's; advice I have to remind myself of from time to time.

Similar advice would apply to bringing Superman, or Dr. House, Thor, Kwai Chang Kane, Neo, Angel(us) or Axel Foley or into the story. They're iconic characters but their movies/tv shows/comics are about THEM.

If you want your players to play those characters, knock yourself out; that might actually be interesting. But at least the focus isn't being stolen from players. And you've started your campaign with the premise that other universes exist, that you can cross them, etc.

Premise 1: Such-and-such is the universe we're playing in.
Premise 2: players are playing such-and-such character


But by throwing in a non-sequitur from another universe, when you started out with another premise, (that you're in the Star Wars universe) you undermine the fabric of the universe you're in.
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GM of Falling Star: D6 Star Wars Campaign Podcast

[willg]

Undermine...a bit strong, but fair enough, lets let this topic die a deserved and quick death.

[willg]

So...your saying I can CREATE a species with those attributes I want on my character...so , in theory I could create a species VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to the Time Lords, except call them Chrono monks or something, just to get past people who dont like crossovers.

Seems a ridiculous premise, when all I wanted was one guy and a broken down TARDIS.

[aegisflashfire]

Its a start, yup. Because then you've not broken your universe. (Except adding that whole time travel thing; which I still maintain breaks the universe in all sorts of other ways)

But SPECIFICALLY adding a Timelord doesn't just add a Timelord. It adds Daleks, Cybermen, Silurians, Ice Warriors, Weeping Angels, The Silence, Sontarans, Zygons, Autons, Ood, Vashta Narada, Judoon, Sycorax and U.N.I.T. It adds the Face of Boe, Krillitanes, werewolves, the Wire and most egregiously It adds EARTH to the story. But it also adds teleportation, space distortions and pocket universes, sentient snow, non-force based telepathy.

Getting back to crossovers that work: Ghostbusters & Cthuluh works because they share a basic framework. Elements of horror, but more importantly EARTH. They occupy the same space, same cultures. Both already have a common mythology; they're next door neighbors in theme.

The same can be said of X-Men & Star Trek. Both are Earth derrived. Both already had space travel, warp drives, teleportation, regeneration, energy beams, mutation and psychic powers, telekinisis, etc.
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http://swfallingstar.podbean.com
GM of Falling Star: D6 Star Wars Campaign Podcast