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aegisflashfire
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 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:39 pm Post subject: mistakes that became canon |
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There were a number of misinterpretations that ended up finding their way into the Star Wars rules and then ended up affecting the canon in other ways. While I have no precise evidence of any of these, I'm pretty sure I'm on the right track. Are there any others you're aware of?
The Imperial scourcebook details a Scimitar squadron of bombers. In the book we're given every indication these are standard TIE Bombers. Timothy Zahn mentions "Scimitar bombers" in Heir to the Empire series, which I believe was intended to refer to the Scimitar squadron. Instead the writers of the Heir to the Empire created Scimitar Assault Bombers and a new fighter was added to the canon.
I've already mentioned that the Stormtrooper Blaster rifles were probably intended to be pistols in some situations, but because of WEG's interpretation, we never see stormtroopers with pistols.
Home One in ROTJ is almost certainly a call sign (like Gold Leader, etc) Nowhere in any of the ROTJ material are any ships other than the Falcon and the Tyderian referred to by name, throughout the whole battle all ships are referred to by call sign or their pilot's name. It is unlikely the Mon Cal named their ship "Home One" (and all other ships of the Mon Cal line have other names (Mon Remonda, Reef Home, Defiance, Allegiance, etc) but it was canonized in WEG and thus repeated in all subsequent materials.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: mistakes that became canon |
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| aegisflashfire wrote: | The Imperial scourcebook details a Scimitar squadron of bombers. In the book we're given every indication these are standard TIE Bombers. Timothy Zahn mentions "Scimitar bombers" in Heir to the Empire series, which I believe was intended to refer to the Scimitar squadron. Instead the writers of the Heir to the Empire created Scimitar Assault Bombers and a new fighter was added to the canon.
I've already mentioned that the Stormtrooper Blaster rifles were probably intended to be pistols in some situations, but because of WEG's interpretation, we never see stormtroopers with pistols. |
Good topic, aegisflashfire. Who do you mean when you say "writers of the Heir to the Empire"? Wasn't there just Timothy Zahn?
And I don't get how WEG's interpretation could have affected anything, being as we only saw stormtroopers lacking pistols in the three films (which were done by 1983), years before WEG came out with their first intreration of the game.
Most definitely, though, the WEG writers, as well as other liscencees (like Decipher) most assuredly had an implact on canon (it remains to be seen how much of that is kept) by the stuff they created.
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aegisflashfire
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: mistakes that became canon |
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| DougRed4 wrote: |
Good topic, aegisflashfire. Who do you mean when you say "writers of the Heir to the Empire"? Wasn't there just Timothy Zahn?
And I don't get how WEG's interpretation could have affected anything, being as we only saw stormtroopers lacking pistols in the three films (which were done by 1983), years before WEG came out with their first intreration of the game.
Most definitely, though, the WEG writers, as well as other liscencees (like Decipher) most assuredly had an implact on canon (it remains to be seen how much of that is kept) by the stuff they created. |
I dashed this off in a hurry. Sorry. What I meant to say, is that the writers of the Heir to the Empire (specifically Dark Force Rising) SOURCEBOOK, and unfamiliar with the content in the Imperial Sourcebook, took the phrase "Scimitar bombers" and assumed it was some new class of fighter, rather than a TIE Bomber of the Scimitar Wing, thus the invention of the Scimitar bomber.
What I intended to say was that WEG originally intended for the weapon in the hands of the Stormtroopers (in their holster) was probably intended to be a blaster pistol. Because different authors misread the info, eventually the weapon became the Stormtrooper One blaster rifle, (or the Blastech variant who's designation escapes me at the moment) But every source since then has listed stormtrooper equipment as including a Blaster pistol, which is never seen on screen.
Another example would be the Star Destroyers seen in sources like Dark Empire-- I'm convinced that a number of those ship were just badly drawn Star Destroyers of the Imperial/Imperator class, but they still show up as new Star Destroyer classes.
Yet another example is the Length of the Executor-class Star Destroyer. WEG published an initial size of 8 Kilometers and that was repeated over and over again. On screen evidence clearly contradicts this, and eventually Lucasfilm continuity checkers finally posted a length around 19km
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor-class_Star_Dreadnought
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: mistakes that became canon |
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| aegisflashfire wrote: | | What I meant to say, is that the writers of the Heir to the Empire (specifically Dark Force Rising) SOURCEBOOK, and unfamiliar with the content in the Imperial Sourcebook, took the phrase "Scimitar bombers" and assumed it was some new class of fighter, rather than a TIE Bomber of the Scimitar Wing, thus the invention of the Scimitar bomber. |
Thrawn's quote in Dark Force Rising specifically mentions "two flights of Scimitar assault bombers", so if this is an error, then it is likely Zahn's, not WEG's. Also, it is unlikely that the Scimitar Assault Wing would be reassigned to the Chimaera, as its ground attack focus would not be well suited to the superiority missions that the ship could be expected to perform. Personally, the only thing I considered an error was WEG not giving the Scimitar the ordnance versatility of the Bomber.
| Quote: | | What I intended to say was that WEG originally intended for the weapon in the hands of the Stormtroopers (in their holster) was probably intended to be a blaster pistol. Because different authors misread the info, eventually the weapon became the Stormtrooper One blaster rifle, (or the Blastech variant who's designation escapes me at the moment) But every source since then has listed stormtrooper equipment as including a Blaster pistol, which is never seen on screen. |
My take was always that the holstered weapon used by stormtroopers was a carbine, not a pistol or a rifle, as a weapon with a shorter barrel and folding stock is consistent with modern differentiation between carbines and rifles.
| Quote: | | Another example would be the Star Destroyers seen in sources like Dark Empire-- I'm convinced that a number of those ship were just badly drawn Star Destroyers of the Imperial/Imperator class, but they still show up as new Star Destroyer classes. |
Agreed. Although one of Dark Horses poorly drawn Star Destroyers served as the basis for fractalsponge's Bellator-Class Super Star Destroyer, which truly is an amazing ship, and one of the few fan-made projects to receive official status.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: mistakes that became canon |
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| aegisflashfire wrote: |
Another example would be the Star Destroyers seen in sources like Dark Empire-- I'm convinced that a number of those ship were just badly drawn Star Destroyers of the Imperial/Imperator class, but they still show up as new Star Destroyer classes.
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Or just artists being creative and adding in new ships just cause they wanted to, and fans keying onto that to say
"WOW those ships must exist in WEG books somewhere. What do you mean they don't. OK lets stat them out!"/
Another example though i am not sure it was an actual mistake, was Zahn calling Imperial center, Coruscant, and then Lucas taking that name for the planet in the prequels.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: mistakes that became canon |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
My take was always that the holstered weapon used by stormtroopers was a carbine, not a pistol or a rifle, as a weapon with a shorter barrel and folding stock is consistent with modern differentiation between carbines and rifles. |
A carbine IS a rifle. There is no way to put a carbine in a holster. Even the so-called AR pattern "pistols" are much too big to put into a holster. Same with the AK pattern, collapsible-stock carbines.
Even a submachine gun (short barrel, folding stock) such as the MP-5 (a favorite of swat teams and Navy SEALS) is much, much too big for a holster, yet it is nowhere near the size of a carbine.
WotC did the same thing, claiming that a character with a carbine could elect to fire it one-handed (and proceeded to offer a rules benefit/trade-off for doing so) when this is really not plausible. A pistol can reasonably be operated with one hand, even producing accurate fire. A carbine cannot be... although, perhaps a bull-pup carbine could be... but then, there's little point in making a bull-pup carbine...
M1 Carbine/M1 Garand comparison:
M4 Carbine vs M16 Rifle
The weapon up top is a submachine gun (even more compact than a carbine). Pistols are nearby for comparison.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: mistakes that became canon |
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Thanks for clarifying, aegis. And great information on carbines, Naaman (I didn't know all that).
| garhkal wrote: | | Another example though i am not sure it was an actual mistake, was Zahn calling Imperial center, Coruscant, and then Lucas taking that name for the planet in the prequels. |
I wouldn't really call this a mistake, but it's a great example of something from the EU that got incorporated into canon (at the highest level, at that).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly. IIRC there were a few other instances of something from the novels or Fanfic that were turned into canon, but i could have sworn there was a site that listed them all..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: mistakes that became canon |
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| Naaman wrote: | | A carbine IS a rifle. There is no way to put a carbine in a holster. Even the so-called AR pattern "pistols" are much too big to put into a holster. Same with the AK pattern, collapsible-stock carbines. |
And yet it has been done in the SWU. The clone troopers in the prequels used a folding stock, holsterable weapon called the DC-15S, which is specifically stated as being the carbine variant of the DC-15A rifle.
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Rollenspiel
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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One thing that rattled a few cages BitD was the erroneous use of parsec in a way that made it seem as if it were a unit of time and not of space (parallax-second). But that was more Lucas' lack of understanding, probably.  |
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Ninjaxenomorph
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Originally, the script implied that was a bluff on Han Solo's, where Luke would have believed him, and Obi-Wan... not. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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We discussed the parsec mistake a lot back in '77 (along with every other detail of the movie).
What we heard back then (not sure if it came from Lucas or not) was that it was because Han was bragging that he could make cuts and jumps - basically a more dangerous path, perhaps using hyperspace in ways we don't understand - that made you measure the length in distance, rather than time. Sort of like saying "I ran that marathon in 22 miles" (because of shortcuts).
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lurker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: |
...
What we heard back then (not sure if it came from Lucas or not) was that it was because Han was bragging that he could make cuts and jumps - basically a more dangerous path, perhaps using hyperspace in ways we don't understand - that made you measure the length in distance, rather than time. Sort of like saying "I ran that marathon in 22 miles" (because of shortcuts).
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I've never heard that, but I like it ... it makes sense too (in a way) ...
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Dromdarr_Alark
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: |
...
What we heard back then (not sure if it came from Lucas or not) was that it was because Han was bragging that he could make cuts and jumps - basically a more dangerous path, perhaps using hyperspace in ways we don't understand - that made you measure the length in distance, rather than time. Sort of like saying "I ran that marathon in 22 miles" (because of shortcuts).
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I've never heard that, but I like it ... it makes sense too (in a way) ... |
If you read the Han Solo Trilogy, it narrates his famed Kessel Run. It basically has to do with guts, since the Maw is a cluster of black holes. If you want to be safe, you take the long way around. More daring pilots try to find shorter and shorter routes, testing the boundaries of their ships' drives as they skirt the edges of massive gravity wells.
In the story, he was carrying lots of glitterstim spice for Jabba, and a customs vessel was on his tail. He had to race through the Maw as fast as he could so he could punch in hyperdrive coordinates in time to space it. He flew so bravely and skillfully that he was able to cut corners enough to get through the Maw in under 12 parsecs.
Unfortunately, there was another customs ship waiting on the other side, and he had to dump his cargo on an asteroid so he could survive the inspection. Thus is why Jabba isn't too happy with Han at the start of A New Hope.
One of my favorite aspects of Star Wars is the creativity of the authors who make explanations for little factual problems like this.
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