| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
 Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:05 am Post subject: Social Manipulation in the Empire |
 |
|
@Mikael Hasselstein - This occurred to me as part of our e-mail discussion, and it is something that is only touched on in the ImpSB, but is worthy of greater discussion under the aegis of our project. You wrote the following...
| Quote: | | At the end of the Clone War, the Republic was replaced by a centralized, totalitarian, and militarized Empire. Politically, aliens and the outer rim were blamed for both the separatist threat and for disunity, with a strong centralized regime being what stood between civilization and chaos. |
I recently re-read Orwell's 1984, and it got me thinking about the galaxy's transition from Republic to Empire under Palpatine. In our discussion on the transition from starfighters to capital ships, I posited that one of the factors for this transition was that the TIEs were much more dependent on their base or mothership than other starfighter types, thus moving away from an independent mindset to one more of ironclad control from the top. I think that this kind of control was just one of a million facets in Palpatine's New Order, with the ultimate goal of shifting the galaxy's general populace from a mindset of freedom and individuality to a mindset of conformity.
In my previous reads of the Imperial Sourcebook, I skimmed over the COMPNOR sections without really considering the deeper implications. However, in light of 1984, COMPNOR takes on a much more sinister aspect. If the dystopia of 1984 is the end result, the Empire of the classic era in a state of transition to that point. While the Empire lacks the blanket surveillance capacity to monitor all of its citizens for signs of disloyalty, the sheer size of COMPNOR's various agencies allows for surveillance on a grand scale, so that while Imperial citizens have a greater degree of privacy than the citizens of Oceania, they have no reasonable expectation of privacy as we do here in America.
Each of the various branches of the Coalition for Progress mentions ways in which a given branch is attempting to alter galactic society to conform with the tenets of the New Order. Coalition for Improvement takes things to even greater extremes by coercing or forcing a world to conform. SAGroup is a transparent youth indoctrination organization, while the ISB is the proto-Thought Police. Even the names of COMPNOR's branches smack of Orwellian Doublethink or newspeech. Even the word Preservation in the COMPNOR acronym is disingenuous, evoking emotions of protecting something under threat, when the point of the organization is more in line with a fundamental transformation of galactic society from a republic to an absolute monarchy / dictatorship.
The Alliance has even been co-opted into the overall plan, as armed resistance by the Alliance provides justification for the Empire to exercise greater and greater control, all in the supposed name of protecting the citizenry from chaos. It serves as both the internal threat (ala Emmanuel Goldstein) and the external (perpetual war with Eurasia and Eastasia). It is even likely that the ISB and Imperial Intelligence could generate faux resistance units to draw out potentially disloyal citizens.
Political organization in the Empire also has similarities, with the Inner Party being roughly analogous to high-ranking Imperials of varying types. Rather than being particularly loyal to the ideals of the New Order, the upper ranks seem more dedicated to the idea of self-advancement by any means necessary, which is actually more in line with the principles of the Sith. Much as even the Inner Party could be controlled and manipulated, the same is true of the Imperial Elite, with Palpatine playing endless games to pit them against each other, so that they are too busy to present a real threat to him.
As citizens of a free society, it is difficult to picture living under such conditions. No freedom of speech, no right to bear arms, no right to privacy, no right to a fair trial, no right to face one's accuser, no right to self-determination, etc, etc.
The point I'm reaching for is wondering to what degree omnipresent surveillance has progressed in the Empire, and to wonder if more attention should be paid to the manner in which the Empire is molding galactic society into something new and different. With regards to your differentiation between the Core and Rim worlds, your description reminds me of the world of Firefly / Serenity, where the Alliance is another totalitarian regime in which the Core Worlds are a vener of civilization and paradise laid over ugly tyranny, while the dirtier outer worlds may be poor but have a greater degree of freedom.
Mostly just rambling at this point...
Thoughts?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
aegisflashfire
Commander
Joined: 24 Mar 2014
Posts: 298
Location: Cincinnati, OH
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
plenty. But most of them will be covered by Falling Star that deals heavily with this issue 
_________________
http://swfallingstar.podbean.com
GM of Falling Star: D6 Star Wars Campaign Podcast |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lurker
Commander
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
Posts: 423
Location: Oklahoma
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
crmcneill, its kind of funny, I'm right now wearing a "2+2=5" t-shirt ... As such it is a subject close to my heart ...
I agree with all your points, especially your 'as citizens of a free society' point. However (& I truly am not trying to start a politics debate here!), look at our free society. Even with the general history of America being focused on freedom and individuality look at some of the federal policies/agencies. NSA, ATF, IRS etc etc etc being able to listen to phone calls and set legal attacks into motion and confiscate personal property, with minimum of proof. Then look at our society's reaction to this and these policies. Now, how much more so with a society being ramrod by a Sith and reeling from years of interstellar warfare 'caused' by people/planets wanting to separate from the conformity of the Republic (I know that isn't the real cause but it is the cause put out by Imperial propagandists).
| Quote: |
With regards to your differentiation between the Core and Rim worlds, your description reminds me of the world of Firefly / Serenity, where the Alliance is another totalitarian regime in which the Core Worlds are a vener of civilization and paradise laid over ugly tyranny, while the dirtier outer worlds may be poor but have a greater degree of freedom.
|
Too true, with that, I think the core out to the ... Expansion into part of the Mid Rim should have an 'Iron Fist' feel with Imperial presence. Then from the Mid Rim out to the Outer Rim, the wilder (and poorer) the area the less Imperial presence, and the less the Imperial omnipresent surveillance.
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2272
Location: Seattle, WA
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Social Manipulation in the Empire |
|
|
Excellently written, crmcneill, and I agree with almost all of it!
| crmcneill wrote: | | While the Empire lacks the blanket surveillance capacity to monitor all of its citizens for signs of disloyalty, the sheer size of COMPNOR's various agencies allows for surveillance on a grand scale, so that while Imperial citizens have a greater degree of privacy than the citizens of Oceania, they have no reasonable expectation of privacy as we do here in America. |
I was going to point out what lurker did, that I don't know how "reasonable" our expectations can be anymore, now that we're very much aware that the government has spied on (and kept) all of our emails, phone calls, etc.
Overall, though, this is an excellent analysis of the ways the Empire isolated and maginalized the deinizens of the Outer Rim.
_________________
Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ha! It seems you've struck a nerve - and I think that's a telling thing, especially when Star Wars rhymes with Firefly and 1984, and some others (Foundation Trilogy by Asimov and the Matrix in a way, maybe?)
Like I wrote to you in the email, it also reverberates with World Systems Theory, which is a neo-Marxist understanding of world politics and development.
That said, while we do live in uncertain times and the snooping capabilities of our Western countries are expanding, to think of this being the forefront of a totalitarian empire is a bit hyperbolic, and to think of the peripheral world (call it Third World, Developing World, or whatever you wish) as a zone of chaotic freedom is somewhat ludicrous. but then, maybe I've been co-opted by 'the system' 
[/politics]
But, whatever the state of our current world, it does seem to make for a compelling fictional universe, and I completely embrace what you wrote. And yes, it does seem to be the original intent of the ImpSB and the sections of COMPNOR.
In the late Rebellion Era - basically our favorite period, I trust - I would imagine that living in the Core is basically life the way that our tin-foil hat people imagine that it is. Most (human) Imperial subjects are assumed to buy into the system, and feel that they can walk and talk as they wish, given that they shouldn't wish to talk about political subjects. Given that that's the easiest way to live life, that's what most people do. Nobody really knows what people really think.
But because people are so socialized into not expressing their real opinions, the Empire's snooping capabilities are probably fairly modest, and it doesn't really need to be the focus of our much attention, unless you want to play a slicer game. I don't imagine that the SWU has an internet as developed as the one that we have.
On the Rim, life is entirely different. It IS the third world out there, with many cleptocratic regimes (Hutts), corporate regimes (Corporate Sector - though I imagine that that area is actually quite developed, and maybe should be thought of the way we think about South Korea, with its Chaebol), or maybe somethink like the Wild West (Tatooine), where the Empire is like the Federal Government (frequently from the perspective of the Indians, if you're an alien.)
But what do you guys think? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Loc Taal
Grand Master (Founder / Admin Emeritus)
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 801
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh man, now I need to go back and read the section about COMPNOR! I usually just kinda skipped over that part as well. This is a really cool idea and opens up many new plot lines and adventure ideas. I'm picturing a group of rebels wearing Guy Fawkes masks. I also think that the holonet could play a big role in the "resistance". Something along the lines of Mr. Universe in Serenity. You can't stop the signal... Maybe the Empire tries to block a lot of content on the holonet, similar to what the Chinese government has been doing (also not trying to start any sort of political discussion). The holonet could also be more or less accessible in different systems, depending on the technology in the system as well as regional control. It could work really well and be very unrestricted on Corellia, work very well but be very restricted on Coruscant, not work very well on Tatooine but be relatively unrestricted, etc.
_________________
"Mind what you have learned. Save you it can." --Yoda
The original RANCOR PIT archive |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Loc Taal
Grand Master (Founder / Admin Emeritus)
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 801
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm also imagining a more heavy use of spies and informants in a campaign like this. The Empire could make use of them to locate "dissenters", who would then be sent to "re-education centers". The holonet could play a role in this as well. "We've been noticing some rather disturbing messages you've been posting on the holonet. It makes us question your loyalty to the Empire..."
_________________
"Mind what you have learned. Save you it can." --Yoda
The original RANCOR PIT archive |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Loc Taal wrote: | | Oh man, now I need to go back and read the section about COMPNOR! I usually just kinda skipped over that part as well. This is a really cool idea and opens up many new plot lines and adventure ideas. I'm picturing a group of rebels wearing Guy Fawkes masks. I also think that the holonet could play a big role in the "resistance". Something along the lines of Mr. Universe in Serenity. You can't stop the signal... Maybe the Empire tries to block a lot of content on the holonet, similar to what the Chinese government has been doing (also not trying to start any sort of political discussion). The holonet could also be more or less accessible in different systems, depending on the technology in the system as well as regional control. It could work really well and be very unrestricted on Corellia, work very well but be very restricted on Coruscant, not work very well on Tatooine but be relatively unrestricted, etc. |
Perhaps the reason the empire doesn't block stuff on the holonet is that IS how they monitor people. Kind of hard to monitor traffic if that traffic is not being sent.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Loc Taal
Grand Master (Founder / Admin Emeritus)
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 801
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | Perhaps the reason the empire doesn't block stuff on the holonet is that IS how they monitor people. Kind of hard to monitor traffic if that traffic is not being sent. |
Hmm, good point. Maybe it's a combination of the two. Maybe they just out-right block jointherebellion.net (but log those blocks so they're still able to follow up with those sources), and then allow traffic to yourlife.theempire.gov but monitor that traffic for dissenters.
_________________
"Mind what you have learned. Save you it can." --Yoda
The original RANCOR PIT archive |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aegisflashfire
Commander
Joined: 24 Mar 2014
Posts: 298
Location: Cincinnati, OH
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In Falling Star this This will prove to be a plot point.
The holonet is ruled by the Empire, most of it was dismantled or let idle (too expensive to maintain) This is a huge tactical advantage for the Empire as they have instantaneous transmission anywhere in the galaxy, and the fledgling rebellion has no access to it. The rebellion 'gets creative'
_________________
http://swfallingstar.podbean.com
GM of Falling Star: D6 Star Wars Campaign Podcast |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| lurker wrote: | | crmcneill, its kind of funny, I'm right now wearing a "2+2=5" t-shirt ... As such it is a subject close to my heart ... |
Mine as well, and the thought wasn't lost on me while I was writing this up. In many ways, the indoctrination of galactic society probably began during the Clone War, with curtailed freedoms in the name of security simply becoming the norm, and citizens who weren't particularly comfortable with the idea simply going along, so as to not rock the boat. More vocal opposition was likely either covertly suppressed or discredited by the Empire, while those wise enough to see what was coming kept their mouths shut and would ultimately join the Alliance...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | But what do you guys think? |
Since this is your area of expertise, I'm willing to follow your lead on it. I just started the topic because the subject didn't seem to really fall under the cover of any of the other sub-topics we have going on the project.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Loc Taal wrote: | | I'm picturing a group of rebels wearing Guy Fawkes masks. |
Ironic that John Hurt, the man who played Winston Smith in the film adaptation of 1984, also played High Chancellor Adam Sutler in V for Vendetta.
I've read a few other sci-fi settings where it was socially acceptable to wear masks in public for privacy purposes. Criminal Organizations mentions a device called a DimSim which is, in essence, a holographic mask projected over the wearer's face. The basic version is a simple black-out, but it is conceivable for more advanced versions to include image projection (like the Guy Fawkes).
| Quote: | | I also think that the holonet could play a big role in the "resistance." |
We've gone into this in a lot more detail in the Interstellar Communications topic. Short version: the Empire pretty much has a lockdown on the Holonet, only using it for high-ranking military communications. Anything like the network seen in Serenity / Firefly would be on a much smaller, more local level, and using it to assist in resistance would present its own challenges, as Imperial Intelligence has a division dedicated to signal analysis, and using established networks (read, government controlled) would greatly increase the chances of coming to the Empire's notice.
However, the Holonet / Hypernet would certainly prove an excellent method for distribution of propaganda. I picture Rebel information warfare capital ships hacking local or galactic networks to distribute their own side of the story...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 2:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | But what do you guys think? |
Since this is your area of expertise, I'm willing to follow your lead on it. I just started the topic because the subject didn't seem to really fall under the cover of any of the other sub-topics we have going on the project. |
Okay, fair enough. It does seem like we have a consensus on the above.
So, anyway, what does this imply for our naval structure project?
We've established the foundation for the Empire adopting the procurement doctrine of bigger capitals and cheaper/smaller fighters, though there could also be other explanations. Your explanation does suggest a good reason why the Skipray wasn't eagerly adopted, despite the Navy seeing it as a useful ship.
So, from there we move to deducing the historical path of the two decades following the creation of the Empire. In those periods, there was little armed resistance in terms of naval action. Which means that the Empire has little reason to start changing its naval procurement doctrine, except in order to provide logistics for the suppression of local revolts here and there, which are probably more ground based. As such, the navy's main role is in order to blockade planets and transport troops. They also start producing the Nebulon-B as an escort vessel for troop transports.
Of course, the navy is also in charge of combating pirates, but how large did pirate ships get, and that threat was probably not enough for the Empire to really shape their doctrine around.
It isn't until just a couple of years (if that) before the Battle of Yavin that the Rebellion starts posing a naval threat, and even then it doesn't seem like the Empire takes them seriously until they blow up the Death Star.
This probably explains why ASF-specific ships are in such short supply. I imagine the Tartan as a Clone War holdover, which then starts to be replaced by the Lancer, once the Empire realizes its mistake.
At the time of the OT, other Clone War holdovers are the Carrack, Dreadnaught, Acclamator and Venator. Even the Victories are starting to seem outdated, and the fleet has already started bringing in ISD2s instead of ISD1s.
I don't know when the Empire starts facing capital ships. Was the TIE bomber initially designed as an anti-capital ship weapon, or as a ground suppression weapon (strategic bomber)?
The ships being introduced in response to the Rebellion are, then, the Lancer (see above), the Escort Carrier, and the Strike Cruiser - which was also a departure from the doctrinal approach towards ever larger ships. Also, they start introducing the Immobilizer at the start of the rebellion.
With me so far, or do you have amendments to suggest? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 3:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You also have social manipulation via way of the Comnor SAGroup/youth corps (much like the SS had their youth corps).. Get em young and indoctrinate them.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
