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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Let's watch the tone here, people. The last person who wants to lock another thread is me, but it doesn't change the fact that the thread will either be cordial or locked. I've already deleted one post, I don't want to delete more.
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The Brain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: |
The Brain wrote:"Yes so unused that it has multiple terms used to identify it icepick grip, reverse grip, stabbing grip."
Find me a real combat style that actually uses any of those terms. And while you at it, why don't we switch the skill to cooking? Since icepick is a cooking tool, not a weapon? |
You know I'm not going to even bother addressing all the other points in your last post because I've made my points and I'm certain that everyone else is bored with this and does not care anymore. However this last one I will address because I find it insulting that you imply that I'm just making things up. Just go research eskrima and the other martial arts o the Phillipenes, the local term there is pakal grip, but hey maybe I'm just pulling that out of thin air? That is the last I'm going to say on the matter. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | You are indeed convinced that your own view is correct and that any other view is unacceptable and leads to gloom and doom. |
| atgxtg wrote: | | I'd rather see both skills eliminated that see the knife trick as an example of good combat skill. |
| atgxtg wrote: | | What does the kinfe have to do with it? If he did the trick with a comlink would you use communications? |
| atgxtg wrote: | | Oh come on. Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. We allow people with medicine to use knifes to perform surgery? does that mean they can use medicine to wield a knife in combat? |
I would respectfully suggest that your arguments will carry greater weight if you refrain from utilizing the same methods you seem to find so objectionable.
| atgxtg wrote: | | The intended purpose of sleight of hand, form a presentation point of view is to impress the audience. And that is alll this trick is, a presentation. The point of melee combat is to injure the opponent with your weapon. |
The point of the skill Pickpocket is | SWRPG 2R&E, page 40 wrote: | | "to pick the pockets of others, or to palm objects without being noticed." |
The skill Sleight of Hand slightly expands that description, | D6 Space, page 12 wrote: | | "Nimbleness with the fingers, including picking pockets, palming items, and opening mechanical locks." |
but still limits use of the skill to situations where the user is trying to avoid attracting attention, or is picking a mechanical lock. As such, while Pickpocket / Sleight of Hand can be used to an impress an audience, that is not its primary purpose. If used in such a fashion, it is a means to an end, not the end itself.
The skill Melee Combat, on the other hand, is defined as | SWRPG 2R&E, page 39 wrote: | | "the 'melee combat' skill used for all hand-to-hand weapons (except lightsabers, which is covered under the lightsaber skill). Melee weapons include vibro-axes, force pikes, gaderffii sticks, clubs, bayonets and even impromptu weapons like chairs and blaster butts." |
It does not specify that melee combat must be used to injure someone, but instead covers the use of all hand-to-hand weapons. It does not distinguish between conventional or unconventional use, nor does it distinguish between using that weapon to strike with the intent of causing injury and striking with the intent merely of hitting a point in very close proximity to someone. It also covers the use of impromptu or improvised weapons, including pencils, sticks, comlinks and breadsticks.
It seems that a large portion of our difference here is based on differing definitions of the skills involved. If you wish to shift the scope of a skill to cover something other than the RAW, I have no problem with it; changing things to suit the needs of our own campaign is what we do here. However, if I am basing my argument on the RAW and you are basing your's on a house rule, reaching a point of agreement or compromise will be virtually impossible.
That being said, I would prefer to focus my energy on generating a useful skill that will cover flashy and showy techniques like this. I still think there is room for an (A) Flourish skill that will cover show-off moves and the like, as well as enhancing quick-draw / Iaijutsu techniques for practical application.
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The Brain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | In fact, that could be the advantage for the Advanced Skill. The Quickdraw rules in Han Solo & The Corporate Sector allow characters to use their Blaster skill as a dice pool, and a character trained in (A) Flourish would be specially trained not only in flashy moves, but doing them quickly, and could stack their Flourish dice with their weapon skill for speed draws (including Iaijutsu-type techniques for Melee Combat), as well as stacking for showy displays like the Bishop knife trick. |
Actually the more I think about it seems that concept behind the Han Solo & The Corporate Sector SB quickdraw rules best fit the bill with the character splitting his melee combat skill dice between accuracy i.e. not stabbing yourself, and speed at which they complete the trick.
So for example 2 characters sitting in their favorite local wretched hive of scum and villainy decide to settle who is best with a blade (each has melee combat 5d) both whip out vibro-shivs and place their off hands on the table. The GM puts the difficulty to not stab yourself at 15. Player A puts 3d in accuracy and 2d into speed and rolls a 16 and a 10.
Player B puts 2d in accuracy and 3d into speed and gets lucky with the wild die for a result of 15 and 12 pulling off the trick faster to the cheers of the bar crowd.
Player A calls "Double or nothing gammorean wipe!" and now tries again with 2d in accuracy and 3d in speed and rolls a 8 and 14 displaying an impressive blaze of speed as he removes the first joint of his ring finger to bar's howls of laughter. |
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Quetzacotl
Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 281
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | The skill Sleight of Hand slightly expands that description, | D6 Space, page 12 wrote: | | "Nimbleness with the fingers, including picking pockets, palming items, and opening mechanical locks." |
but still limits use of the skill to situations where the user is trying to avoid attracting attention, or is picking a mechanical lock. |
I fail to see the limitation in the description. It says "including these skills". It doesn't say anything about your limitation. It simply gives examples what this skill is most likely used for, nothing more, nothing less. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
The skill Melee Combat, on the other hand, is defined as | SWRPG 2R&E, page 39 wrote: | | "the 'melee combat' skill used for all hand-to-hand weapons (except lightsabers, which is covered under the lightsaber skill). Melee weapons include vibro-axes, force pikes, gaderffii sticks, clubs, bayonets and even impromptu weapons like chairs and blaster butts." |
It does not specify that melee combat must be used to injure someone, but instead covers the use of all hand-to-hand weapons. It does not distinguish between conventional or unconventional use, nor does it distinguish between using that weapon to strike with the intent of causing injury and striking with the intent merely of hitting a point in very close proximity to someone. |
It also covers the use of impromptu or improvised weapons, including pencils, sticks, comlinks and breadsticks. [/quote]
But it does state that the melee combat is used for melee combat, which the knife trick isn't. Since we're gone into definitions
| Quote: |
com·bat [v. kuhm-bat, kom-bat, kuhm-; n. kom-bat, kuhm-] Show IPA
verb (used with object), com·bat·ed, com·bat·ing or ( especially British ) com·bat·ted, com·bat·ting.
1.
to fight or contend against; oppose vigorously: to combat crime.
verb (used without object), com·bat·ed, com·bat·ing or ( especially British ) com·bat·ted, com·bat·ting.
2.
to battle; contend: to combat with disease.
noun
3.
Military . active, armed fighting with enemy forces.
4.
a fight, struggle, or controversy, as between two persons, teams, or ideas. |
| Quote: |
It seems that a large portion of our difference here is based on differing definitions of the skills involved. If you wish to shift the scope of a skill to cover something other than the RAW, I have no problem with it; changing things to suit the needs of our own campaign is what we do here. However, if I am basing my argument on the RAW and you are basing your's on a house rule, reaching a point of agreement or compromise will be virtually impossible. |
Whoa! You're kjust a guilty as I am. The RAW doesn't state that you use melee combat for the knife trick. It says you use melee combat for melee combat. Your assertion that it should be used for the knife trick is not supported by the RAW.
| Quote: |
That being said, I would prefer to focus my energy on generating a useful skill that will cover flashy and showy techniques like this. I still think there is room for an (A) Flourish skill that will cover show-off moves and the like, as well as enhancing quick-draw / Iaijutsu techniques for practical application. |
I agree that something like a Florish skill is the way to go here. I think iaijustu would be a different ability though. IMO iai is probably best handled as an Advanced Skill of Melee Combat. Especially since proper iai techniques are attacks in their own right. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| The Brain wrote: |
Actually the more I think about it seems that concept behind the Han Solo & The Corporate Sector SB quickdraw rules best fit the bill with the character splitting his melee combat skill dice between accuracy i.e. not stabbing yourself, and speed at which they complete the trick. |
Putting the disagreement over which skill to use aside, I'm, not sure if quickdraw is the best way to go here. In a quickdraw duel the tension of the duel is tied to being hit and or killed. It's an all or nothing result. Both duelists are acting at the same time, and you don't have a do over.
With the knife trick I could see a desire to do it in alternating turns, increasing difficulty with each successive attempt.
Plus with a duel the difficulty to hit can vary a bit based on range. With the knife trick the difficulty is pretty much going to be a constant every time you play the game (well, lighting could play a factor, and maybe you could try to play it blindfolded). |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | But it does state that the melee combat is used for melee combat, which the knife trick isn't. Since we're gone into definitions |
| Quote: | | Whoa! You're kjust a guilty as I am. The RAW doesn't state that you use melee combat for the knife trick. It says you use melee combat for melee combat. Your assertion that it should be used for the knife trick is not supported by the RAW. |
And again, we come back around to your assertion (which I do not agree with) that using a knife in a stabbing motion has no relationship whatsoever with combat, yet is somehow connected with the ability to pick pockets or palm small objects.
There is a massive double standard to be found in the assertion that one skill can be expanded beyond its definition, yet others must adhere to the letter; insisting that Melee Combat must be used only for combat, and that Pickpocket / Sleight of Hand may be used for a task that isn't even mentioned in the description is a perfect example.
But whatever, I'm done.
| Quote: | | I agree that something like a Florish skill is the way to go here. I think iaijustu would be a different ability though. IMO iai is probably best handled as an Advanced Skill of Melee Combat. Especially since proper iai techniques are attacks in their own right. |
Since skills are more broad categories than anything else, I'd rather simplify things and have it all under one broad skill that can be applied to the normal Dex skills as needed. Too many skills dilutes the pool available for improving characters.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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I think that what this needs is some real-world perspective. Everyone go home and try this tonight, and don't come back and post until you've done it at least 4 times without hitting a finger.
Just start by using a banana for safety.
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Whoa... where did the banana come from? We've only been talking about knives, pencils, and breadsticks!
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps it's just my old self defense classes talking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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I keep coming around to a rather unorthodox solution for the (A) Flourish idea. In essence, I'm thinking it might work well as, for lack of a better term, an Advanced Specialization.
The basic idea is that the Flourish skill has a prerequisite of 5D in a specific skill (Melee Combat, Blasters, Sleight of Hand, etc), but must be taken as a specialization, such as (A)Flourish - Sleight of Hand, and any bonuses may only be applied to the prerequisite skill. Since it is a specialization as well as an advanced skill, the 1/2 CP cost and the double CP cost would cancel each other out, allowing (A) Flourish to be improved like a normal skill (i.e. at normal CP cost).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Also, with regards to the original question, since no one skill is a direct match, how about the following.
1). Start with a base difficulty (Easy or Very Easy), and you can use your Dex Attribute.
2). However, since the trick involves knives, and Melee Combat includes training with knives, you can use that too, but increase the difficulty by +5 since this isn't how knives are normally used.
3). Or you can use Sleight of Hand (if you choose to define it that way), but at even greater increased difficulty (+10) because not only is it an unfamiliar action, it also doesn't include specific familiarity with the object in question (a knife).
4). Any variation on the (A) Flourish skill would stack with the skill being used so as to overcome the increased difficulty.
As far as the strict interpretation of duplicating the Bishop knife trick, two characters making alternating passes would be outside of this description. To duplicate the trick, you'd be looking at one person starting slow and working their way up faster and faster...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Leon The Lion
Commander
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I appreciate the suggestions, even if they come three pages of unpleasant arguing too late.
My mind on how to handle this in my game is long made up.
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Bobmalooga
Commander
Joined: 13 Sep 2010
Posts: 367
Location: The south...
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I'm amazed that there is a 5 page thread on how to do 'Sailor's Poker' in an RPG setting...LOL
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