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jmanski
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 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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You guys are arguing for one or the other when I see both working just fine. IMHO, neither skill covers it 100%, so I can see using either.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I'm just having trouble seeing what possible definition of Sleight of Hand would cover this. Sleight of Hand is supposed to cover subtle stuff like pick pocketing or palming small objects, whereas Melee Combat actually covers the use of the weapon in question. If someone had their hand flat on a table and the given task was to hold a knife ice pick style and stab that person multiple time in the back of the hand, there would be no question as to Melee Combat being the proper skill to use, yet somehow holding a knife in the exact same fashion and stabbing with the exact same motion (with the only difference being that the goal is to not stab them in the hand) somehow indicates a completely different skill set?
Replace the knife with a pencil, a stick, a sausage or any other ridiculously phallic parody of a knife you can think of and you would still be holding it like a knife and stabbing downward with it; in essence, treating it as an improvised weapon, and thus making it a Melee Combat skill roll. This kind of thing just isn't within the purview of any official definition of Sleight of Hand, and IMO, any attempt to redefine the skill this broadly is just a poorly disguised attempt to min/max Sleight of Hand so that it can be used as the go-to Dexterity skill rather than for the specific set of circumstances designated in its official description in D6 Space. Taking a knife out of someone's pocket without them noticing? Yes. Palming a small knife off a table or counter and hiding it between your fingers? Yes. Even using that knife to pick a mechanical lock would be a Yes. But actually holding the knife by the grip and using it to stab something? No. Different sub set of the same general attribute (Dexterity), but not the exact same skill.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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The problem is that it isn't clearly either a magic trick nor an attack. Melee combat is a series of feints, deflections, body voids, and positioning allowing you to close with an enemy and deliver damage. It has a lot more gross body mechanics than finely placed minute motor functions. It really doesn't fit as an attack. It also isn't the same as palming a card, using distraction to pull a quick manual dexterity trick. I wouldn't point to D6 Space's description of sleight of hand as they have some pretty strange appropriations of skills. Personally I think it's strange decision to have lockpicking under the same skill as palming cards.
What the trick is, is just fine motor function with no practical application. It's all show. This is like asking what skill it is to do a fancy flip with a butterfly knife. I've seen people do a showy-looking twirl with a sword, but for all the showmanship it doesn't mean they can use a blade any better.
All that being said, why is this even a mechanical question of skills? This sounds like it would be a pretty simple thing to roleplay or do as a cut scene.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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It's my understanding that the intent is to roll once per round against increasing difficulty, in effect creating a mini gambling game within the game.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | So, out of all the skills under Dexterity, only Sleight of Hand involves hand-eye coordination? While we're at it, maybe we should allow characters to substitute Sleight of Hand for Con if they are speaking in Sign Language. |
Now that i could get behind.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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And since Sleight of Hand is used for "tricks" we could even substitute it for Tactics, since it could be used to trick one's opponent.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | This kind of thing just isn't within the purview of any official definition of Sleight of Hand, and IMO, any attempt to redefine the skill this broadly is just a poorly disguised attempt to min/max Sleight of Hand so that it can be used as the go-to Dexterity skill rather than for the specific set of circumstances designated in its official description in D6 Space. |
I've never seen or read D6 Space, so that isn't at all entering into my view of things on this matter.
But to call this a "poorly disguised attempt to min/max Sleight of Hand" as a go-to Dexterity isn't what anybody's trying to do, I don't believe. In fact, just the opposite.
If anything, players of Star Wars are more likely to have allocated skill points into Melee Combat, a skill that happens fairly often. But skills like Pickpocket or Sleight-of-Hand are extremely niche skills that hardly ever see play, at least from what I've seen. So encouraging the use of a little (to almost never) used skill for something (at the expense of not using a commonly used skill) is pretty much the opposite of min/maxing.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| The Brain wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | But the trick isn't about proficiency with a knife. You can do the knife game with other objects, a pencil for instance, or even a drinking straw. The whole thing is about eye-hand coordination, not fighting skill. So Sleight of Hand is a better match. |
So I can play a game of darts with sleight of hand (SoH) then, or a game of mumbley peg? |
Nope, becuase neither of those things involve sleight of hand.
| The Brain wrote: |
People have said that SoH should be used because your not actually trying to damage someone, |
I disagree. The fact that you are trying or not trying to damage someone makes no difference whatsoever. People aren't trying to damage each other when they are training with weapons, but they are certainly using weapon skills.
The thing with the "knife trick" is that it isn't about proficiency with a knife. It's about moving something quickly between your fingers and not hitting yourself.
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but the melee combat skill has nothing to do with damage that is an effect entirely dependent the weapon and strength attribute. |
In game terms that is mostly true. It shouldn't be but it is. There are some optional rules for factoring skill into the damage. But I agree with you that damage has nothing to do with what skill you use. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | So, out of all the skills under Dexterity, only Sleight of Hand involves hand-eye coordination? While we're at it, maybe we should allow characters to substitute Sleight of Hand for Con if they are speaking in Sign Language. |
No, but it is the one which use is closest to that required by the knife game.
The point about the knife game is that the knife itself is not the key factor to it. The game could be played with just about any object that can be used to stab between the fingers. A magic marker would work.
The knife just adds an element of danger to it and makes the thing more exciting (and IMO more stupid).
The whole point about selecting a skill is to find the one that's the best match for the task being attemtped.
Suggesting the use of Sleight of Hand for Con, Tactics, Piloting (ya gotta press the buttons, right?, astrogation (ditto), droid repair (ditto), history (ya got flip pages), dodge (let your fingers do the walking), etc. is just being deliberately obtuse.
Claims that we are trying to turn Sleight of Hand into the "go to" (or the default) DEX skill are absurd. This is just a case of trying to find a skill that is relevant to the task being attempted.
I suppose if I said we should use Con for picking up girls someone would say that we should be using Lifting, and that doing otherwise just makes Con too powerful. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:31 am Post subject: |
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[quote="atgxtg"] | crmcneill wrote: | | No, but it is the one which use is closest to that required by the knife game. |
No, it isn't. There is nothing in the description of Sleight of Hand that covers weapons handling. Melee Combat actually covers the handling of knives and using them to stab something. Substituting any sort of object (which is also being deliberately obtuse) for a knife doesn't change the fact that you are holding said object like a knife and using it to stab something. By allowing Sleight of Hand to stand in for general Dexterity when performing tasks outside of description, you are making it the Dexterity go-to skill.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: |
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I think that what he is saying is that the comparison between Sleight of Hand to a sign-language con would be akin to reducing your argument to absurdity by taking your statement concerning "knife handling" and applying it to using melee combat in order to do artistic wood carvings.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | I think that what he is saying is that the comparison between Sleight of Hand to a sign-language con would be akin to reducing your argument to absurdity by taking your statement concerning "knife handling" and applying it to using melee combat in order to do artistic wood carvings. |
Thank you, Master cheshire. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="crmcneill"] | atgxtg wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | No, but it is the one which use is closest to that required by the knife game. |
No, it isn't. There is nothing in the description of Sleight of Hand that covers weapons handling. Melee Combat actually covers the handling of knives and using them to stab something. |
Execept this isn't about using a knife to stab something. It's about moving a object rapidly between your fingers and trying NOT to stab something.
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Substituting any sort of object (which is also being deliberately obtuse) for a knife doesn't change the fact that you are holding said object like a knife and using it to stab something. |
Except your not
a) holding said object like a knife (llok at any sort of knife fighting style and you won't see them holding the blade that way) or
b) using it to try and stab something (that's how you lose the game)
By your reasoning we should use melee to handle surgery, since a scalpel is a type of blade and it is being used to cut someone.
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By allowing Sleight of Hand to stand in for general Dexterity when performing tasks outside of description, you are making it the Dexterity go-to skill. |
Yup. But I'm not allowing it to stand in for general tasks. i simply said it is the closest skill for this particular task, since both involve rapid controlled movement.
But in the film, the point of the knife game was to show Bishop's superhuman coordination. So shootingwomprangs was probably right back on page one, and it should just be a DEX roll, or maybe it's own skill. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | But in the film, the point of the knife game was to show Bishop's superhuman coordination. So shootingwomprangs was probably right back on page one, and it should just be a DEX roll, or maybe it's own skill. |
Yeah, I'm behind that idea.
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Quetzacotl
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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I think all 4 options are fine (Melee Combat, Sleigh of Hands, DEX, Own skill).
Melee Combat and Sleigh of Hands are both not completely fitting, but they're not completely off either, so I think all of them are fine.
Just take the highest and thats it (tho I would see that trick more as a specialization of either Melee Combat or Sleigh of Hands than as an own skill). |
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