Force Sight and Miraluka

[DougRed4]

I'm posting this here as the previous discussion on this topic (starting on p. 4 here) was off-topic for the thread it was in.

'House Rules' might not be the best category for this, but being as there isn't a ton defined for this Force ability, it allows us to explore and expand with any new ideas.

To continue the discussion, the talk of color blindness reminds me of something in The Hangover III, which I saw just a few days ago. In it, two characters are trying to disable a house's security system, and to do so, they both have to cut the wires in small panels at the exact same time. One character easily locates the red wire, and the other says that there's light gray, medium gray, and dark gray. Of course, the other quickly discovers he's color blind and is forced to crawl over and show him which is which.

It ended up highlighting one of the problems that could result from being color blind. As I discussed this with one of my players recently, I pointed out that even a warning light on the dash of an unfamiliar ship could be problematic for somebody who can't distinguish color.

From what's written about Miraluka, I don't think they're meant to be severely handicapped. I think the Force ends up compensating for the most part. Our PC is only Force Sensitive, so doesn't have a Sense skill. One of my players suggested that perhaps he should just make a Perception roll (he suggested 1/2 PER, but I think it should probably be full) anytime the issue came up. The quality of his roll would then dictate what he could perceive.

And in the SWU there doesn't seem to be a ton of paperwork/books. Most "modern" information seems to be in the form of datapads and the like.

I will also note that - when a Miraluka runs into an area where the Force is dampened in any way - they would be completely blind, which hinders those (that aren't used to it) far more than most of us probably understand.
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green

[CRMcNeill]

Carrying over from the other conversation...

[CRMcNeill]

[Tupteq]

I wouldn't make force seeing effect depend on Sense roll. This power could just provide an additional sense with some special features (translucent objects, seeing trough walls, no colors in traditional meaning), but otherwise functioning like a normal sight (e.g. no ability to read both sides of paper without flipping). In some situations (where colors are important) user may have difficulty raised by one level (or require Easy PER roll). PER and Search could be still used to notice something as normal (but of course force sight user can see enemy behind the wall etc.).
And maybe, Sense roll could replace Search rolls (if user wanted).

[CRMcNeill]

It's Force Sight; they are seeing through the Force, ergo, it is Force based, and thus dependent on Sense (or their Force Attribute, if you choose that route). Perception rolls are geared more toward what a person processes from what their senses tell them.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[shootingwomprats]

Again guys you are making this entirely too difficult. Their blindness is only cinematic. They "see" through the Force. All this does is allow them to see, negating the blindness penalty. Done and over.
_________________
Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter

[CRMcNeill]

[DougRed4]

Just wanted to add that my friend who I was discussing this with (not the one playing the Miralukan, and who is familiar with the Saga version of the game) pointed out that in Saga using it takes a minor action (I believe). In other words, it doesn't take the character's entire turn, but it requires them to actually concentrate (and take a moment), perhaps to see beyond what is obvious to anyone. So maybe they "see" (with the Force) what the rest of us do, but to perceive anything beyond that might take an action (and a use of PER or Sense).

This thread gives some thoughts about how they work in Saga. Somebody posted their stats for that game:

Miraluka
Ability Modifiers: -2 dex, +2 int
Medium Size
Speed: 6 squares
Intuitive Initiative: A Miraluka may choose to reroll any initiative check, but the result of the reroll must be accepted even if it is worse.
Impairment: Miraluka do not have functional eyes. If they have eyes at all, they are vestigial white orbs. They are physically blind, giving everything concealment against them.
Bonus Feat: Force Sensitive
Bonus Force Technique: Improved Sense Surroundings - Miraluka actually see through the force. They may use Sense Surroundings (which allows a force user to ignore concealment) as a free action rather than as a swift action. (which essentially negates their blindness.)

I think this other thread is also Saga, where someone posted a Miraluka as:

MIRALUKA SPECIES TRAITS
All Miraluka have the following species traits.
Ability Modifiers: +2 Intelligence, -2 Dexterity. Miraluka have keen minds, but their reliance on the Force to perceive their surroundings prevents them from reacting quickly.
Medium Size: As Medium creatures, Miraluka have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Speed: Miraluka base speed is 6 squares.
Force Sight: Although blind, Miraluka can "see" through the Force. They act normally without taking any penalties for blindness. This trait enables them to make Perception checks, and read and write as a sighted person. They can, however, ignore the effects of darkness as if they had darkvision. Miraluka cannot, however, detect creatures that are "invisible" to the Force such as the Yuuzhan Vong and the ysalamiri (page 131). These creatures have total concealment from Miraluka, as do creatures in areas that dampen or suppress the Force.
Conditional Bonus Feat: A Miraluka who has Use the Force as a trained skill gains Force Training as a bonus feat.
Automatic Languages: Basic and Miralukese.

Looking at my D20 book for Alien Species, it gives them the following abilities:

Quick Reaction: Despite their general lack of coordination, a Miraluka's reaction speed is superior to that of most other species. Miraluka gain a +2 species bonus on initiative checks.

Force Sight: Miraluka are blind to all wavelengths of light. However, their ability to see through the Force allows them to sense their surroundings as though they could see normally, allowing them to attack and make skill checks without suffering penalties for blindness.
Using Force sight is a free action and costs a Miraluka no vitality points.
Bonus Feats: Miraluka gain the bonus feat Force-Sensitive. A Miraluka who takes his or her first level in a Force-using class (Force adept, Jedi Consular, or Jedi guardian) also gains the feat Sense.

Discussing this in the D20 game, there's this interesting thread, where some contend that the Wookieepedia entry is wrong about Miraluka, and this one that considers how close their Force Sight is to x-ray vision.
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green

[Assuran]

I would agree that Miraluka's Force Sight is something entirely different than a normal use of the Force Sight power or perhaps a refined version of that power if you want to lump them together.

It would be a racial trait rather than a power in terms of the game, like in Saga.

The more interesting fact is that this means if a player chooses to play as a Miraluka, by default he'd be force sensitive.

As for for that means in game terms, I'd use their perception skill for sight based checked like all other players. Getting to complicated only bogs down the game.

[DougRed4]

I'm fortunate that the player of our Miraluka chose to be Force Sensitive (only a few of my PCs are).

I'm leaning towards doing things the way I've done them, though this discussion has made me think about the issue in much more depth. As far as the racial trait, I simply went with what the D6 Holocron entry has:

Special Abilities:
Force Sight: The Miraluka rely on their ability to perceive their surroundings by sensing the slight Force vibrations emanated from all objects. In any location where the Force is in some way cloaked, the Miraluka are effectively blind.
_________________
Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green

[CRMcNeill]

Maybe it is less actual "sight" than it is more like Daredevil's radar sense.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[shootingwomprats]

Well as there is no fluff text saying that the species has additional sight benefits beyond just "seeing" I wouldn't give them additional benefits. Explain it how you will and how you will, but its nothing more than flavor. They see like everyone else does UNLESS cut off from the Force or the item viewed would be "outside" the Force.

I would explain the site away as a very quick precognition, allowing them to see a couple of nano seconds into the future. I would not allow seeing in the dark, whether black and white or color really doesn't matter beyond "flavor".

I also agree that the species would have to be Force sensitive. I do not think they should get bonuses to learning Force skills. If so they would be a main part of the Jedi Order and they are not. There is something else that makes a Jedi special beyond just an affinity to the Force.
_________________
Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter

[CRMcNeill]

[DougRed4]

[Savar]

Lol, long chain of links got me to this topic.

Shadowrun's astral perception ability has good guidelines for something like this, with some tweaks.

The difference is astral is based off of emotion.

Force is based off life.