The four way lightsaber battle....versus Vader

[aegisflashfire]

Ok, this weekend's Falling Star concluded with a 4 way lightsaber duel between 1 NPC, her 2 remaining padawans and Darth Vader.

Now, RAW makes this a >VERY< short fight. Vader, with lightsaber combat active, can attack 7 times per round rolling 16D+3 to hit and 17D & change for damage without bothering to activate combat sense or spend any resources such as Force or Character points. Even burning a force point per turn the padawans (with their 5Dish lightsaber skill and 3D-4Dish sense/control skill) had zero chance against Vader. Even burning full force points can they hope to hit Vader, and the Reduce Injury ability and by resorting to parrying such a flurry, Vader just stops them in 2 rounds at best.

I took one look at the ridiculous dice pools involved and quickly changed tactics. (I honestly never expected that the padawans would try to engage Vader, I expected them to heed their master and flee)

I elected to handle this in a manner similar to D&D 4ed's skill challenges instead.

We simply alternated skill tests. Each player had a difficulty they had to make, I gave bonuses for good descriptions, Each player could only use one skill per round and they could not use the SAME skill the last player used or the same skill they had before. They had to accumulate a certain number of successes.

Lightsaber combat in Star Wars is diverse-- it involves brawling attacks, force attacks. acrobatics, jumping, swinging, telekinesis, use of the environment, your opponent's weaknesses, etc.

So I had them just alternate skill use, and I think it worked out great. One player used pickpocket to try to tag Vader's chestplate, or streetwise to fight dirty (throwing debris at Vader.

In the end I was very happy with the result-- The players succeeded at the challenge (ie didn't die) but failed to take down Vader (obviously) while able to maintain better control of the narrative, and I think we got a better duel, something like we'd see in The Force Unleashed, than just a straight dice-rolling fest that would have ended very badly for the players.

[DougRed4]

That's actually a pretty good idea, aegisflashfire. Though I have to admit I'd be likely to let my padawans die, especially if they'd been warned by their master and me as GM (and I've warned my players that doing something like attacking Vader or the Emperor would likely result in their deaths).

That's a creative use of lightsaber combat. I'm pretty pleased with my own tweaks to lightsaber combat (there's a link in my sig, just go to "Supplemental Rules" on our site; they're pretty simple and straighforward).
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green

[garhkal]

[RC]

That sounds like a very exciting way of doing "Epic" battles like that. I'd love to see that implemented in the game I'm currently in, but as I'm not the GM I can't exactly point and say "This I want."

[CRMcNeill]

I have gone a different route with Lightsaber combat, expanding on the Dueling Sabers optional rule. In essence, rather than a sequence of attack vs. parry, the opponents roll opposed dice rolls, then compare the difference for the result of combat.

Here is the link for the topic discussion, if you want to take a look. It's not completely nailed down yet...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[aegisflashfire]

My goal with Falling Star is storytelling, not making players pay for sticking with their characters and staying true to them. An epic 3 on 1 duel is far more interesting two rounds of dice rolling.

[garhkal]

So you are in essence making it almost known to them they have a sort of script immunity if their death would detract 'from the story' being told.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[aegisflashfire]

Script immunity; no. This was a one-shot, and the finale of a one shot at that. I could have easily killed the characters.

But a slaughter has no tension, no storytelling value, and an anticlimax really undoes the all the storytelling you've put into it in the first place.

The chance of success or failure should depend on the players, not the characters. If the players felt bound by the characters I created for them, (and the situation I created for them) then that is on me, not them.

I wanted the PLAYERS to have a hand in the storytelling of the end. We all knew Vader would win the fight, and all agreed that was a foregone conclusion. But whether or not their characters died, I wanted in the players hands--bound as they were by their characters personalites and loyalties.

If you allow players no chance for any type of success, and bind them into a character (as they were in this one shot) then you rob the PLAYERS of agency.

[CRMcNeill]

So, rather than it being a Leeroy Jenkins scenario, the situation was such that the characters would have chosen to fight Vader, even knowing they couldn't beat him?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[aegisflashfire]

Their master arranged to dual Vader knowing she would lose, in (small) part to stall for time for them to escape. (Her motives were extremely obscure and will only be revealed way, way down the line in the plot)

The padawans refused to abandon their master, but once their master fell, they fled.

[CRMcNeill]

Okay, since this came back up on the shootingwomprats topic, I thought I would bring it up here.

On the surface, it feels like I'm either missing something or that this is a major abuse of the skill system. Skills are supposed to represent specific categories of training that the characters have devoted time to improving, at the expense of other skills. To hit Vader's chest plate with a light saber in mid combat is actually covered under the RAW (See 2R&E, page 91 for called shots), and I have difficulty picturing how Pick Pocket could realistically supersede Lightsaber when making an attack with a lightsaber.

I completely understand your desire to make lightsaber combat more realistic, as the RAW is seriously lacking in this regard, but IMO, this method stretches the concept of suspension of disbelief beyond its breaking point. However, I can see it working in combination with the Dueling Blades optional rule.

If you aren't familiar with Dueling Blades, it replaces the lightsaber attack vs. parry roll with the players each making a single opposed roll to represent an entire round of attacks and parries, with the resultIng effect determined on a table. The original table included only four results: Force Back, Knockdown, Wound and Trick, in that ascending order.

For your purposes, I would suggest a modified Dueling Blades result table, reversing Wound and Trick, and then using the other non-lightsaber skills to roll for Trick results. In addition, I would suggest reverting to 1E lightsaber combat rules, which just used Lightsaber instead of stacking with Sense for saber battles. That way, Vader is still formidable, but not overwhelmingly so.

Finally, with regards to the 3-on-1 battle, I would require Vader to make three separate Lightsaber rolls at a -2D MAP, each generating its own result on the Dueling Blades table. However, it is important to note that fighting in close proximity to allies has complications of its own; your friends may not be trying to attack you, but they can still get in your way and there is still the potential of accidentally injuring each other. Realistically, only so many attackers can come at a lone defender simultaneously without getting in eachother's way, usually 5-6 at most. In the case of a 3-on-1 battle like this, I would apply reduced MAPs (+1 per each other fighter, +2 if the fighters had not trained together or otherwise had some experience with how the other fighters would behave in battle).

I understand that the scene has already occurred, so this all may be moot. But just in case there is a next time, that is my .02. credits.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[aegisflashfire]

Again, since you have not listened to how it played out, you're commenting without any real information.

And for the record, tagging Vader's chest plate was not done WITH the lightsaber, the lightsaber was a misdirection-- a distraction while the character used their off hand to try to adjust the settings on the breastplate. Just like waving a handkerchief in someone's face while you slip an off hand in their pocket.


Pickpocketing is not solely about fishing something out of someone's pocket. Its about manipulating your mark's attention and focus while you do something else. I justified this with the big bright glowy blade (and 2 other people present in combat) would be sufficient distraction, that someone who was a practiced pickpocket might slip the contact in unnoticed since that hand is not really preforming a strike. (is not a fast moving, momentum imparting strike that would be noticed)

here's a video explaining a bit of it.

http://youtu.be/Br2YfuR-Iv0

FYI I'm a martial artist IRL, I've spent 10 years learning various forms of Karate & TKD and studied BJJ for 4 years under Grandmaster Relson Gracie, and have been in several real-life combat situations so I have some understanding of how those skills are informed by other skills in my repertoire.


Again, you're commenting on something without actually having seen it.
This storytelling technique was engaged only AFTER my players and I all agreed that mathematically this was a Kobayashi Maru situation for the players. We all agreed in advance that Vader isn't going to die, and if I just rolled the dice RAW, the game would be over in 2 rounds.

So I had this technique in the back of my head that I thought would expand the storytelling, and allow the players some say in how the story played out, what sort of deaths they might earn, etc.
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http://swfallingstar.podbean.com
GM of Falling Star: D6 Star Wars Campaign Podcast

[aegisflashfire]

ok. nevermind. Found your link to Dueling Blades.


a) WAY WAY too rules complicated for players on their second play session.
b) Still allows no use of the environment or situation



Lets look at this from the perspective of trying to create any of the more complex lightsaber fights in Star Wars.

The system I'm advocating here lets you play out and tell exactly that story, in a quick fashion. It encourages players to get creative with the story telling and their characters choices in combat.
The result is a more cinematic play for all involved without falling back on 'throwing dice at it'

You may not like it, but I do encourage you to actually listen to it, before you poo-poo it.
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GM of Falling Star: D6 Star Wars Campaign Podcast

[CRMcNeill]

[aegisflashfire]

I think the problem here is one of how broadly we interpret the skill.

Your view (correct me if I'm wrong here) is that skills represent a very specific set of techniques.

My view is that a skill is a broad description of general experience in that area.


This can probably be encapsulated in a description of the blaster skill


As you would interpret it, blaster skill is specifically about marksmanship.

I would interpret blaster skill more like general familiarity with blasters, including makes & models, marksmanship, general maintenance, (though not modifying or repairing), power packs-- -Essentially what you'd get from a CCW class.

Conceptually, the way you get good at shooting is a lot of practice shooting. But that implies hanging out at a shooting range, or time just working with your weapon, field stripping it, cleaning it, clearing a jam, or just going out behind the shed with friends, doing target practice all of which increase your general familiarity with blasters.


similarly:
Streetwise implies time spent on the street, moving through the urban culture, dealing with the underworld, etc. A street urchin, a petty criminal, etc. These are people who've probably seen more than a few street fights, back ally scuffles, etc Fights that are not being handled by Marquis of Queensbury rules or UFC or the like in other words. It isn't really even about "can I throw dirt well' as it is "Would my character even think like this." Maybe the character has seen it done in a fight on the street a number of times, and remembered it worked best when done xx way.



Now I'm really going to take exception to pickpocket here.

How else would you describe an action, where you close inside someone's personal space, use one hand to hide what the other is doing, offer a distraction, to make a modification to an object on your target's person, without them noticing.

That sure sounds like a pickpocket to me. You make think its a stretch, but to call it an 'abuse' of the rules system is ridiculous.


Finally, we took as a given that there was a clash of sabers going on, the actual blow-by-blow strike/parry back and forth isn't particularly interesting to anyone. As always the dice are a storytelling tool, not an an end unto themselves.

Think of it this way: Two evenly matched duelists square off. RAW the luckiest wins. Both parry & attack, someone roles higher, someone rolls lower.

In reality the one who wins is the one who is just as skilled, but uses better tactics, has better knowledge of the terrain, or brings something else to the fight. In fact the ONLY lightsaber battle in the entire Star Wars saga, EU included, that seems to be solely determined by skill with a lightsaber is the Obi-Wan/Vader fight in EpIV.



I'm reminded of this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html



and one final clarification: I invited feedback on the podcast. You have not commented on the podcast, and instead accused me of 'abusing' the rules without actually listening to how it was handled. (not your fault, it hasn't been posted, this particular episode goes live Sunday night)
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http://swfallingstar.podbean.com
GM of Falling Star: D6 Star Wars Campaign Podcast