Attribute and caps...

[DarthOmega]

Okay, so we started our game earlier this evening, working on just character creation. All of us are experienced role-players, though I'm the only one that has ever played this particular system, and it's been 15+ years for me, but either way I decided to just let everyone make their own template with some guidance from me.

Everything was going fine until I noticed something - how does one NOT cap out a character's attributes at character creation? Let's take the basic human - they get a starting 2D in all attributes, with a max of 4D. They get 12D to spread among their attributes. 12 divided by 6 (the number of attributes) is 2. So each attribute can be increased by 2D which automatically caps out all 6 attributes at 4D...

I have to ask, am I missing something? I must be because I don't see the point of that. Are the maximums just for character creation? I've read all over this forum looking for an answer, and the consensus on that is that they are the flat racial maximums. Why would the rules allow for people to start off with completely maxed out (attribute wise anyway) characters?

That and my players were wondering what the point of the pips were at character creation. No one divided any of their 12d into the three pips because they felt that having the full die code increase was better (which odds are, it is).

Again if I've missed something let me know. I don't remember people starting with maxed out characters at game start previously, but then it's been a LONG time like I said. Thanks for any advice or insights.
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[Leon The Lion]

Hello.

You are in fact missing something, or rather getting it a bit wrong.

A starting character gets 18D to distribute between 6 attributes, with a minimum of 2D and maximum of 4D in each.
Effectively, he starts with 2D in all 6 attributes, and an additional 6D to distribute.
So he can max out 3 attributes at 4D leaving the other 3 at 2D, or even out all 6 at 3D, or anything in between he wishes.

Dividing starting attribute and/or skill dice into pips and distibuting them separately has as much point as you want it to. If you feel that having the full die code increase is better, don't do it. That's a valid chioice. Others may be of different mind, like if they want a character who has just a little training but in a lot of skills. It may not be "optimal", but still a valid character building choice, story wise. Either way, the option is available.
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[DarthOmega]

OH! I see now...thanks for the clarification. I personally can see the use of pips. If you decide to say keep two or three of your attributes on the low end, you may want the additional +1 or +2 to help them out a bit, I think I just need to explain that to my players.
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Knowledge is power, and power corrupts...so what does that say about knowledge?

Read my gaming blog at www.alteredrealities.net - click on the tabs near the top for the different pages that usually have character bios and other info.

[cheshire]

I've got a handout that explains to new players how to do their starting attributes and skills. You and your players might find it useful. You can find it here:

http://www.4shared.com/zip/PKQh3fdD/New_Player_Handout.html?

Please remember that 4shared has a lot of very large blue and green "DOWNLOAD" buttons. The one you're looking for is a small, discreet icon that is just underneath the file listing.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[DougRed4]

Another thing to keep in mind (and perhaps point out to your players, DarthOmega), is that the pip bonuses are automatic numbers.

In other words, the lowest you can roll with 3D is a 3 (if all dice come up 1's). In fact, if the Wild Die is a 1, the most likely option the GM will do is take out it and the highest, leaving you with a total of 1.

Conversely, if you only had a 2D+2 in that same skill, while the average will be lower (than 3D), your minimum roll is a 4. When you roll a 1 on the Wild Die, and take out it and the highest, you still get at least a 2.

So the point is that those pips become automatic numbers applied to your total. For players that tend to roll crappy on dice, they may choose to split their dice up into pips, guaranteeing (generally) higher minimum results.
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[garhkal]

[Tupteq]

More about pips - their value can be easily appreciated when you have an attribute value like 2D+2 and you start increasing skills for that attribute. Increasing any skill just one pip above attribute gives you 3D - an additional die, only four pips give you 4D - two more dice!
I'm often using this trick while creating NPCs - it allows me to conserve attribute pips at cost of few skill pips.

[DarthOmega]

Thanks for the advice and input guys! I just printed off the New Player Handout, and I will be helping two of my players remake their characters tonight with all this new information. I have to wait to do the other player's character before game on Sunday.

I will also be sure to tell my players about the points you guys made about the pips. Like I said, I personally see the point of using them. I hope with what you guys said, and me pointing out that they can help low skills/attributes that maybe they will use them as well. Especially now that they are all likely to have much lower attributes than they have currently.
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Knowledge is power, and power corrupts...so what does that say about knowledge?

Read my gaming blog at www.alteredrealities.net - click on the tabs near the top for the different pages that usually have character bios and other info.

[lurker]

[garhkal]

Maybe cause you have something hanging from a certain facial place

usually when i go for making a home template, i put 3d+2 in 1-2 stats max, so that way the low side ones get 2d+1.. Rather than doing 4d and 2d like many go for.
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[DarthOmega]

Update - Worked with two of my players on their characters earlier this evening. They are looking much more like beginning characters now (the Force user had drastically less dice in their Force skills, from 4 to 2), and both even opted to break up a die to give themselves some pips to shore up some weaker attributes.

Thanks again for the help. It's been a long time since I've run or played this game, so I have a feeling I'll be asking a lot of questions, so bear with me.
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Knowledge is power, and power corrupts...so what does that say about knowledge?

Read my gaming blog at www.alteredrealities.net - click on the tabs near the top for the different pages that usually have character bios and other info.

[cheshire]

Questions are great. We encourage them rather than endure them.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[Ral_Brelt]

Another pair of things that may help get the cogs going:

Play through the choose your own adventure as their premade char for the dice mechanic.

For the first adventure, run them through the introductory adventure box set to get them comfortable with the dice, pace and mechanics.

[Tupteq]

If you have a Force user then you might consider following change in rules: for each pip of attribute character receives 1D for force skills with sensible max (4-6 pips for inexperienced character). On the other hand, raising force skill would always cost twice the value before D, not only without a teacher.

This way your Jedi isn't handicapped (if sacrificed many attribute dice for force skills) or barely Jedi (1D in one force skill, so it will take years for him to make use of it). Higher raising cost will eliminate the situation that many GMs noticed - Jedi at the beginning is a weakest character, then in certain moment becomes most powerful and from that moment rest of party may feel useless, because Jedi is better in almost everything.

This change worked great for me, because makes players more happy (no one feels useless in any moment of campaign).

I know that some people in forum may not like this suggestion, so anticipating this I want to note that [u]this is only my personal opinion, you may consider it, but it's not an official RancorPit statement[u]
I'm not going to discuss it further (at least not in this thread).

[Random_Axe]