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griff
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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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 Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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I once thought that the Kid's attributes should all star at 2D. That leaves 6D left to distribute, or 18 pips. Give the character 2 pip per year over the age of 9 years old. By the time the character is 18 they would have the full 18D for their template. They could have a template in mind when this is taking place to have a set goal for attribute dice.
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shootingwomprats
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Joined: 11 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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I think you guys are missing the point here. Are pulp characters supposed to make sense? I mean really make sense. Not really. So the idea of introducing rules (AKA krunchiness) to the game really does not make sense. If you want more crunch in your game or wants you SWU to make more sense, then by all means make up some house rules. I personally don't think its unreasonable for a PC child to have 18D in attributes. Does it make sense? No. Does more than half the SWU? Again no. Just my thoughts guys. As you were.
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griff
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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To shootingwamprats' post, he's right, it doesn't need to make sense. And as an Ewok lover (yes Ewok lover) that should be very clear to me. If a bunch of teddy bear can help defeat the Empire, a kid can have 18D of attributes o questions asked. By the way Google Images "this is Endor" blanking awesome.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10437
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:10 pm Post subject: PC Age/Kid PCs |
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From a post this past October...
| Whill wrote: | It is a stretch to imagine a kid with 18D attributes and the same starting skills as everyone else, but on the other end a starting-level Retired Imperial Captain PC only starts out with the same 7D in skills as everyone else. Since for me it is important for all PCs to start out equal, I don't weaken or strengthen characters based on experience-level of the PC's background.
The way I look at it, an 18D/7D Kid is an especially extraordinary kid (and human for that matter)... And with the aged characters it could be a combination of them starting out life as closer to an average joe and didn't work their way up until much later in life, and also perhaps some of their skills have even lessened over time. So no matter how long or short each character's background is, when the PCs come together they all just happen to be at a point in each of their lives where they are roughly equal in overall ability. For the sake of game balance you just accept it and move on.
I'm not a big fan of the Kid character concept, but I do have 2 teen templates available, just in case a player really wants to play one. One is based on the PC write-up in the Imperial Double-Cross solitaire adventure book but with a minimum character age of 15. I call this one Extraordinary Kid. The other one is based on the 2E and R&E Kid templates with the twist that they have spent some time in a swoop gang, and the minimum character age is 13. I call this template Street Punk. |
Extraordinary Kid
DEX 3D+2
KNO 2D+1
MEC 3D+2
PER 3D
STR 2D+1
TEC 3D
Street Punk
DEX 3D+2
KNO 2D
MEC 3D+1
PER 3D+1
STR 2D+2
TEC 3D
| Whill wrote: | | And for the record, in my game an average Human has 2D+1 for all attributes and a PC has a max of 4D+1. So a 2D in Knowledge is slightly below average, and 2D+1 attributes are exactly average instead of slightly above average. That scale helps with making the kid PCs seem not quite so outrageous. |
For the sake of game balance, all the PCs are equal to each other at the start of the campaign. Kid PCs are considered to be extremely exceptional children, while the older characters are of a much lower caliber, for their age. The point is, they are equal when they come together and start adventuring.
By forcing children PCs to have lower attribute and skill die value totals than everyone else, that is not game-balanced with adult characters. The same goes for giving older characters more skill dice. This is imposing a less realistic equality, one where all PCs are equal to each other in each age range. That is saying that the Retired Imperial Captain was equal in ability to the Kid decades before the campaign started, and likewise the Kid will grow up and age into a character that the is equal in ability to the Retired Imperial Captain he is adventuring with now.
Maybe the Retired Imperial Captain was just an average joe when he was a kid and slowly gained ability and experience to get where he is by the time he retires and joins the Rebellion. The starting Retired Imperial Captain wouldn't have been a PC-caliber character when he was younger, but he didn't have to be because he wasn't a PC back then. He is now. Maybe the Kid will grow up and be an super-powerful Jedi Knight some day, far overpowering any starting PCs. He doesn't have to be game-balanced to PCs currently the age he will be in that future time period long after the campaigns end - He only has to be balanced to the PCs he is currently adventuring with.
PCs don't have to be equal for each life stage - They only have to be equal to each other now, regardless of their differences in age.
| garhkal wrote: | | So why not in SW D6? |
Because Star Wars PCs aren't in play for decades of in-universe time. How long in game-time has any single PC you've played or ran been in play? And Sparks doesn't count because the same adventures are ran multiple times for multiple groups of characters and played out of order. Non-convention gaming, how long?
I've never ran any PC that aged more than four years of game-time before being retired as a PC. Unless your adventures take place very far apart or you are a major scrooge with awarding CPs, PCs will become very advanced after a few years, and the game begins to break down at high levels of PC ability. I don't see the need for PC character aging rules when PCs will not age significantly while they are in-play.
If you don't think any kid (no matter how exceptional) could have 18D/7D total (even with low STR and KNO), then just don't allow kid characters.
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Last edited by Whill on Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2286
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: PC Age/Kid PCs |
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| Whill wrote: | | I've never ran any PC that aged more than four years of game-time before being retired as a PC. Unless your adventures take place very far apart or you are a major scrooge with awarding CPs, PCs will become very advanced after a few years, and the game begins to break down at high levels of PC ability. I don't see the need for PC character aging rules when PCs will not age significantly while they are in-play. |
I've seen quite a few PCs adventure for longer than this in my games, some much, much longer. My supers game has probably over a dozen PCs that have been played for a decade or longer, some over twenty years.
I do admit that many of our campaigns only last for about 4-5 years, though.
A number of games I play do take age into account with regard to attributes, and that does make sense. I haven't felt the need to extend that to Star Wars, as I'm shooting for more of a pulp, action feel rather than perhaps a more realistic one.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| griff wrote: | | I once thought that the Kid's attributes should all star at 2D. That leaves 6D left to distribute, or 18 pips. Give the character 2 pip per year over the age of 9 years old. By the time the character is 18 they would have the full 18D for their template. They could have a template in mind when this is taking place to have a set goal for attribute dice. |
That might work.
| Quote: | | Because Star Wars PCs aren't in play for decades of in-universe time. How long in game-time has any single PC you've played or ran been in play? And Sparks doesn't count because the same adventures are ran multiple times for multiple groups of characters and played out of order. Non-convention gaming, how long? |
The longest i have had ran one was from just after the end of the clone wars to the start of a new hope (the rise of the empire and creation of the rebellion), 20 years or so.
Next longest went from Hoth time frame to 10 yrs after ROTJ before pettering out.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:02 am Post subject: |
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For SW i have yet to make any age based changes, what i put up above was a suggestion, for those who would LIKE to make some. As for those characters in that 20+ year game, when you take travel time, down time (for learning stuff), bacta dunks etc, time can fly real quick.
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Leon The Lion
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Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | The PCs all start the same and end roughly the same. That's real world game balance. I admit I just don't get the GM-mentality where it's ok to mix drastic differences in PC ability-level into the same group. |
While I'm generally with you on this, I'd just like to point out that some players themselves may also actually find it fun sometimes. If everybody in the group is on board and all right with it, and the GM knows how to handle it, then weaker or stronger PCs in the same party can work fine.
In my Secret of Zir'An game I made the PCs unequal, with the older, more experienced secret agent guy starting with roughly 30% more build CPs than the younger, fledgeling adventuring archeologist girl. In return, I'm using something I once saw called a veteran-prodigy methiod, awarding the less experienced character about twice the CPs after each adventure, until their total CP levels equalize. It is somewhat of an experiment, but it seems to work fine so far.
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Centinull
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 156
Location: The Outer Rim Territories
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: |
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I'm perfectly happy with kids having 18 attribute dice in Star Wars.
As a personal preference, I would limit them to 2D+2 max strength. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | The PCs all start the same and end roughly the same. That's real world game balance. I admit I just don't get the GM-mentality where it's ok to mix drastic differences in PC ability-level into the same group. |
While I'm generally with you on this, I'd just like to point out that some players themselves may also actually find it fun sometimes. If everybody in the group is on board and all right with it, and the GM knows how to handle it, then weaker or stronger PCs in the same party can work fine.
In my Secret of Zir'An game I made the PCs unequal, with the older, more experienced secret agent guy starting with roughly 30% more build CPs than the younger, fledgeling adventuring archeologist girl. In return, I'm using something I once saw called a veteran-prodigy methiod, awarding the less experienced character about twice the CPs after each adventure, until their total CP levels equalize. It is somewhat of an experiment, but it seems to work fine so far. |
I play and run a number of games where the PCs aren't all equal, too, and it does work just fine. It does help to have mature players. Our supers game had it where PCs ranged from 1-8 super powers until we (fairly recently in the long history of the campaign) changed it so that they all get an equal amount. Our Star Trek game started out with PCs ranging from Captain (40 some Advancements, which is the equivalent of hundreds of CPs) to Ensign (probably 5-10 CPs).
In my current SW game, I'm introducing a new PC that will be back where everybody else was when they started (18D for attributes and 7D in skills), while four other characters have around 130 CP. And one PC who just had a character death decided to play a padawan. She starts out with lesser attributes and skills, with the understanding that she will progress faster than everyone else until she equals the others.
As long as the players are fine with it, it can end up being more realistic, and can even mirror the genre tropes better (where the Imperial Captain seems a bit more experienced than the young kid). I'm okay with the balanced approach, too, but find good features in both approaches.
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