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shootingwomprats Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013 Posts: 2690 Location: Online
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Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:27 pm Post subject: Force Power: Acceleterate Healing |
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Accelerate healing (R&E p.143) one minute of meditation is required and states the Control difficulty is based on the wound level of the character, "...Moderate for incapacitated characters, Difficult for mortally wounded characters.
R&E p.97, "The incapacitated character is now awake, but is groggy, cannot use skills, and can only move at half his "cautious" rate (this is 1/4 Move)." For mortally wounded, "The character can't do anything until healed."
It would seem RAW are in conflict here. I am of two thoughts on this:
1. The Force power is written incorrectly and the player cannot use his Force skills until such time as he is healed to at least Wounded 2.
2. Though the Force user is badly hurt he is able to rally his body using the Force and this is reflected in how badly he is wounded. I am uncomfortable with this because it blatantly requires one to ignore established rules. Furthermore it makes having even a minor Force power pretty awesome!
Thoughts or criticisms? _________________ Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
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Red 331 Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 215 Location: Nebraska
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:10 am Post subject: |
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It seems pretty clear from the example with "Ana" on Page 143 (R&E) that your Option #2 appears to be the RAW answer. It appears that this particular force power can be attempted even when a character is incapacitated or mortally wounded (Ana is the latter).
What's less clear is if any injury penalty applies at all to the accelerate healing rolls themselves. In other words, does a wounded twice character need to reduce their Control die by 2D before making an accelerate healing roll attempt? If so, what penalty do you use for an incapacitated or mortally wounded character?
My read of the RAW is that, for this particular force action, there is no injury die penalty for the accelerate healing rolls, regardless of injury level. What do other people think? |
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shootingwomprats Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013 Posts: 2690 Location: Online
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:19 am Post subject: |
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I think you are correct. I really don't like this power as written. Its a seriously bad @ss power. Quite nice. Seeing as you apparently can use Medpacks with it as well. Sick, seriously sick.
Let me give you an example.
Dirk is Mortally wounded. He empties his mind allowing the Force to flow through him and heal his body. He spends a minute in meditation (longer if the character wants to roleplay it out that way) then makes his Control roll (he has Control 4D+1), he must make Difficult roll and the GM decides its 18. Dirk rolls 22 and is successful. He rolls 2D+2 and gets a 9, improving from Mortally Wounded to Incapacitated.
Nur-roke the party medic with First Aid 5D slaps a medpack on Dirk. This requires a Moderate roll, GM decided 15, Nur-roke rolls a 19. Dirk improves to Wound 2.
Nur-roke decides to use another medpack on Dirk. This would normally be an easy roll but since its the second use of a medpack in 24 hours it increases difficulty to Moderate, the GM again decides on 15. Nur-roke rolls 16. Dirk improves from Wounded 2 to Wounded 1.
Twelve hours pass and Dirk can roll another healing roll 2D+2 and rolls 9. He now improves from Wounded 1 to fully healed.
So in 12 hours, using the Accelerated Healing power and 2 medpacks he is fully healed. Seriously crazy I thinks. _________________ Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
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griff Captain
Joined: 16 Jan 2014 Posts: 507 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:12 am Post subject: |
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Yes a character that is incapacitated is knocked unconscious, but only for 10D minutes. After that the character should be able to use the force power. But I think more healing after that is a bit much. _________________ "EXECUTE ORDER 67. Wait a minute, that doesn't sound like order 67..... No, wait. Yes, yes it does. EXECUTE ORDER 68" Palpatine's last moments - robot chicken. |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2272 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:08 am Post subject: |
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SWR, I don't think that sounds that unreasonable. I guess it comes down to how long you want your characters to be walking around wounded. Personally, I prefer them to be able to get themselves back up to speed fairly quickly and get back to the adventuring!
Your example supposes successes on all of the rolls and the use of numerous med packs. But it's still stuff that takes time and resources, so it still has a 'cost' of some kind, at least. _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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shootingwomprats Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013 Posts: 2690 Location: Online
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:08 am Post subject: |
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You are correct I had assumed successes. I also did not even bother to take into account possible Character Point expenditure to make the rolls, which the players would most certainly do in the case of a mortally wounded character to heal. _________________ Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
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Red 331 Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 215 Location: Nebraska
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Don and/or Daniel - I think your example with Dirk the Durable makes sense, and still includes considerable risk and uncertainty. If Dirk misses that first control roll, he's in serious trouble - he'll have to start rolling every round to see if he dies or not. And given that the force power took a minute to attempt, there's no second chance without some immediate medical assistance from Nur-roke. (In other words, if the control roll is failed, my take is that the character would have to start making the rolls every round to see if they die or not DURING that first minute).
Griff, my take on this force power is that an incapacitated character wouldn't need to wait the 10D minutes before making the control roll, since even a mortally wounded character is allowed to make the roll. |
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shootingwomprats Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013 Posts: 2690 Location: Online
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Do you think that the character while wounded starts to meditate and immediately gets to roll to heal then does so again in 12 hours? Or do you think they enter a healing trance that allows the Force to accelerate the healing process, after 12 hours they may make their first roll and another one in 12 hours after that?
Do they need to remain resting to have this work effectively? R&E p.98, "Healing characters can do virtually nothing but rest. A character who tries to work, exercise or adventure must subtract -1D from his Strength when he makes a healing roll."
This seems to make a whole lot more sense to me. The example R&R p.143 strongly suggests that character can immediately make the first check after meditating for one minute and successfully making the Control roll. Though the Effect suggests 12 hour segments between rolls.
Also, would the character suffer the modifier for being wounded when rolling his Force skill. Wound 1 (-1D), Wound 2 or higher (-2D)? Or is this another case in which a Force power supercede's an already established rule mechanic? _________________ Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
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shootingwomprats Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013 Posts: 2690 Location: Online
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Accelerate Healing (revised)
Control Difficulty: Easy for wounded characters; Moderate for incapacitated characters; Difficult for mortally wounded characters.
Required Powers: None
Time to Use: One minute of meditation
Effect: A Jedi who uses this power successfully may make two natural healing rolls for the current day (12 hours apart) regardless of the severity of the injury. The Jedi gets a +2 modifier to both Strength rolls to heal.
Notes: the Jedi requires one minute of meditation to use the Force to alter his bodies natural rhythms and accelerate the healing process. If the roll fails the character may attempt this action again, but the difficulty goes up one level for each additional attempt. If successful the player may make two natural healing rolls at +2. The first after 12 hours and the second 12 hours after that (twice in a 24 hour period). During this time the character should be resting. If the character tries to work, exercise or adventure subtract -1D from his Strength when he makes a healing roll. _________________ Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
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lurker Commander
Joined: 24 Oct 2012 Posts: 423 Location: Oklahoma
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: |
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shootingwomprats wrote: |
....
Dirk is Mortally wounded. He empties his mind allowing the Force to flow through him and heal his body. He spends a minute in meditation (longer if the character wants to roleplay it out that way) then makes his Control roll (he has Control 4D+1), he must make Difficult roll and the GM decides its 18. Dirk rolls 22 and is successful. He rolls 2D+2 and gets a 9, improving from Mortally Wounded to Incapacitated.
Nur-roke the party medic with First Aid 5D slaps a medpack on Dirk. This requires a Moderate roll, GM decided 15, Nur-roke rolls a 19. Dirk improves to Wound 2.
Nur-roke decides to use another medpack on Dirk. This would normally be an easy roll but since its the second use of a medpack in 24 hours it increases difficulty to Moderate, the GM again decides on 15. Nur-roke rolls 16. Dirk improves from Wounded 2 to Wounded 1.
Twelve hours pass and Dirk can roll another healing roll 2D+2 and rolls 9. He now improves from Wounded 1 to fully healed.
So in 12 hours, using the Accelerated Healing power and 2 medpacks he is fully healed. Seriously crazy I thinks. |
As the party medic for the Monday night game, I completely like this idea !!! Especially as I tend to be as wounded as the guys I'm working on so any bit of help I can get to keep everyone up and running is more than welcome!
Seriously though, it does read a bit overpowered, but to me the force should be a little over powered. It does things that border on the miraculous with ease. Those in tune with the force and using it (and being so used by the force at the same time) have benefits above and beyond that of common science? Why doubt that someone that can lift objects with their mind, convince soldiers that they are mistaken and the picture on the data pad is not who it is with a simple sentence, sense danger before it happens, can in fact heal themselves (with a little help from the team medic) from deaths door to fully healed in a day or 2.
Plus, as others pointed out there is the random risk of failure in the rolls. As the mentioned team medic, I put a big chunk of my starting dice in first aid so that I end up with a 6d roll on medic skills. That way (fortunately with my horrid luck & 1s on wild dice) even with difficult rolls I have a good chance of success. However, how many teams have that kind of medic to support them? So at best, there will be 3 to 4d rolled and say at best 50ish% chance of success on the roll. Maybe even less than 50% ... With that doesn't a party with a Jedi (thus more than likely facing some killer enemies) need that extra boost in survivability?
Also, are we not playing a 'heroic' space opera game, shouldn't the heroes be taking those risks that could put them close to death … shouldn't those same heroes be ready to face the next danger in a day or two without flinching … Especially a Jedi and those who are associated whit him. Ok, that sounds a bit more snarky than it should, but you get where I'm coming form _________________ "And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14168 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Red 331 wrote: | It seems pretty clear from the example with "Ana" on Page 143 (R&E) that your Option #2 appears to be the RAW answer. It appears that this particular force power can be attempted even when a character is incapacitated or mortally wounded (Ana is the latter).
What's less clear is if any injury penalty applies at all to the accelerate healing rolls themselves. In other words, does a wounded twice character need to reduce their Control die by 2D before making an accelerate healing roll attempt? If so, what penalty do you use for an incapacitated or mortally wounded character?
My read of the RAW is that, for this particular force action, there is no injury die penalty for the accelerate healing rolls, regardless of injury level. What do other people think? |
To me they need to have and USE remain consious first if they are MW or Inc before they can try to use this skill to heal up one level if they are going to do so BEFORE the 2d minutes of being out cold when one goes to Incap passes. If not they can just wait till they come too.
As for the injury dice, they Are included (-3d for inc and -4d for MW) when i DM.
Red 331 wrote: | Don and/or Daniel - I think your example with Dirk the Durable makes sense, and still includes considerable risk and uncertainty. If Dirk misses that first control roll, he's in serious trouble - he'll have to start rolling every round to see if he dies or not. |
No he doesn't. If he fails to even activate the power, nothing happens other than a minute of time passes. How ever if he DOES activate the power but rolls real bad on his natural healing roll (+2) and gets so low he worsens his condition, NOW he is in trouble as he is now mortally wounded.
Red 331 wrote: | Griff, my take on this force power is that an incapacitated character wouldn't need to wait the 10D minutes before making the control roll, since even a mortally wounded character is allowed to make the roll. |
That is tru they can, but to ME they need to have used remain conscious first to even get a chance.
shootingwomprats wrote: | Do you think that the character while wounded starts to meditate and immediately gets to roll to heal then does so again in 12 hours? Or do you think they enter a healing trance that allows the Force to accelerate the healing process, after 12 hours they may make their first roll and another one in 12 hours after that?
Do they need to remain resting to have this work effectively? R&E p.98, "Healing characters can do virtually nothing but rest. A character who tries to work, exercise or adventure must subtract -1D from his Strength when he makes a healing roll." |
Yup. First roll right after power's successfully activated, then 2nd roll 12 hrs later, but NO activities can be performed otherwise you suffer that -1d.. BUT in most cases, once someone hits Wounded twice after using this the first time, they med pack up, so that 2nd roll never kicks in anyway. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Red 331 Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 215 Location: Nebraska
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: |
To me they need to have and USE remain consious first if they are MW or Inc before they can try to use this skill to heal up one level if they are going to do so BEFORE the 2d minutes of being out cold when one goes to Incap passes. If not they can just wait till they come too.
As for the injury dice, they Are included (-3d for inc and -4d for MW) when i DM. |
I'd forgotten the Remain Conscious power. Good call Garhkal. So an incapacitated character or mortally wounded character first needs to activate Remain Conscious, and then could use Accelerate Healing, and/or Control Pain (technically the incapacitated character could also wait the 10D minutes until they regain consciousness automatically). Thinking about the MAPs and other factors that go along with these combinations is making me a little dizzy.
garhkal wrote: |
No he doesn't. If he fails to even activate the power, nothing happens other than a minute of time passes. How ever if he DOES activate the power but rolls real bad on his natural healing roll (+2) and gets so low he worsens his condition, NOW he is in trouble as he is now mortally wounded. |
I think I disagree with you here, Garhkal. Going through the steps here, if Dirk was successful in using Remain Conscious first as you suggested, he could either try for Control Pain or Accelerate Healing. Even if he first is successful using Control Pain, I don't see anything that would prevent the 2D roll after every round to see if they are still alive and kicking or not. The Control Pain writeup on Page 144 of R&E pretty explicitly states "Mortally wounded Jedi may still die from their injuries, even if they aren't feeling any pain". So whether you activate Control Pain or not after Remain Conscious, if you subsequently fail in your Accelerate Healing roll while still being Mortally Wounded, I think RAW implies you still have to roll after each round to see if you "make the final jump", as they say. You may have made a house rule otherwise, but I don't see anything to say otherwise in the RAW.
I'd be interested to see some people run through some examples of these scenarios, using the appropriate MAPs and other modifiers. I'm not sure my brain is capable of doing that right now - but I'll bet Cheshire could tackle it only using half of his brain power. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14168 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Maybe you misunderstood me red.
Your Initial example for Dirk failing his control roll (to use Acc heal) seemed to include the nat heal roll that failed as it seemed like you already had him pushed from incap to MW.. That's why i said what i did. Unless you were on about someone ALREADY at MW trying to use it. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2272 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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lurker wrote: | Plus, as others pointed out there is the random risk of failure in the rolls. As the mentioned team medic, I put a big chunk of my starting dice in first aid so that I end up with a 6d roll on medic skills. That way (fortunately with my horrid luck & 1s on wild dice) even with difficult rolls I have a good chance of success. However, how many teams have that kind of medic to support them? So at best, there will be 3 to 4d rolled and say at best 50ish% chance of success on the roll. Maybe even less than 50% ... With that doesn't a party with a Jedi (thus more than likely facing some killer enemies) need that extra boost in survivability? |
My group doesn't have anybody that skilled as a medic, I don't think. And yes, I think a group with a Jedi needs that extra boost in survivability.
lurker wrote: | Also, are we not playing a 'heroic' space opera game, shouldn't the heroes be taking those risks that could put them close to death … shouldn't those same heroes be ready to face the next danger in a day or two without flinching … Especially a Jedi and those who are associated whit him. Ok, that sounds a bit more snarky than it should, but you get where I'm coming form |
Totally. I tend to dislike games where - in order to be more 'realistic' - the heroes have to sit around for days (or longer) healing up. Far better to use bacta, or medpacks, or Jedi, or whatever is necessary, to get them back up and into heroic action! _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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Red 331 Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 215 Location: Nebraska
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Maybe you misunderstood me red.
Your Initial example for Dirk failing his control roll (to use Acc heal) seemed to include the nat heal roll that failed as it seemed like you already had him pushed from incap to MW.. That's why i said what i did. Unless you were on about someone ALREADY at MW trying to use it. |
I think we're just talking about two different scenarios, Garhkal. I was just going off of Daniel and Don's first example with "Dirk" (see the third post from shootingwomprats). Dirk was mortally wounded. So I was just saying that if Dirk missed his first control roll for Accelerate Healing, he would be subject to rolls every round to see if he remained among the living, per standard rules for mortally wounded characters. So I assumed he FAILED the control roll, whereas I think you're talking about a scenario where he rolled successfully and then improved to incapacitated. So we're probably in agreement - just talking about different situations. I think you also helped explain how a mortally wounded or incapacitated (during first 10D minutes) character can even take an action at all - through first using Remain Conscious.
With Accelerate Healing, do people think that the first of the two natural healing rolls takes place immediately? I was thinking maybe first you spent the minute to activate the power, and then 12 hours later you made the first natural healing roll (followed by another 12 hours later). But that wouldn't seem to make sense for a mortally wounded character. What do other people think? |
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