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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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 Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I think that some of the problem here is that specializing in Lightsaber:Single blade is like specializing in Firearms:ballistic. It isn't really a specialization (because it's not special.) |
Yes but as long as the ruling is consistant I have no problem with it. So if people are happy for a Lightsaber specalization of Lightsaber:Standard Lightsaber then more power to them.
I still prefer keeping Melee Parry, Brawling Parry and making each Lightsaber Varient it's own distinct skill set (which allows both attack and parry under the same skill) but if you're going to ditch Melee Parry, Brawling Parry and allow specalizations in standard lightsaber then everything remains consistant.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I think that some of the problem here is that specializing in Lightsaber:Single blade is like specializing in Firearms:ballistic. It isn't really a specialization (because it's not special.) |
Huh? So, a blaster pistol or vibro-blade is special, but a lightsaber isn't?  |
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | I think that some of the problem here is that specializing in Lightsaber:Single blade is like specializing in Firearms:ballistic. It isn't really a specialization (because it's not special.) |
Huh? So, a blaster pistol or vibro-blade is special, but a lightsaber isn't? |
Simply put: Exactly.
It is very much a different experience to fire a rifle, from firing a pistol. Also, flying my grandpa's Luscombe 8F is very different from flying a 747. Attacking a man with a mace is very different from attacking him with a rapier. Swinging a lightstaff is quite possibly very similar to swinging a single-bladed lightsaber.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I think that some of the problem here is that specializing in Lightsaber:Single blade is like specializing in Firearms:ballistic. It isn't really a specialization (because it's not special.) |
Think of it in terms of a person with Melee Combat specializing in Melee Combat: Sword and Melee Combat: Staff. Lightsaber itself would be the general skill covering all the various kinds of lightsabers.
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Fallon Kell
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | I think that some of the problem here is that specializing in Lightsaber:Single blade is like specializing in Firearms:ballistic. It isn't really a specialization (because it's not special.) |
Think of it in terms of a person with Melee Combat specializing in Melee Combat: Sword and Melee Combat: Staff. Lightsaber itself would be the general skill covering all the various kinds of lightsabers. |
So why not melee combat:lightsaber?
The mechanics that separate lightsabers from other melee weapons are universal to all lightsabers. The skill Lightsaber isn't about how to switch your grip on a staff, or how to pommel bash with a sword. It's about how to handle weapons with blades made of... uh... whatever lightsabers blades are made of. (light, plasma, particle streams, whatever).
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | Simply put: Exactly.
It is very much a different experience to fire a rifle, from firing a pistol. |
No it's not. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: |
No it's not. |
Do you shoulder your handguns?
How many feet long is the sight radius of your favorite pistol?
Do you cup both hands together on your rifles, or hold your pistols under the barrel?
Pistols and rifles do have some major similarities, but the differences vastly outnumber them, just because of differences in size and shape, regardless of other important, but variable factors like projectile velocity.
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MasterKazur
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | I think that some of the problem here is that specializing in Lightsaber:Single blade is like specializing in Firearms:ballistic. It isn't really a specialization (because it's not special.) |
Think of it in terms of a person with Melee Combat specializing in Melee Combat: Sword and Melee Combat: Staff. Lightsaber itself would be the general skill covering all the various kinds of lightsabers. |
I tend to agree with this.
This is by far what comes closest to the official rules. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | So why not melee combat:lightsaber? |
I wouldn't have a problem with this. IMO, a lightsaber is not so dissimilar from other melee weapons that it needs a separate skill.
| Quote: | | The mechanics that separate lightsabers from other melee weapons are universal to all lightsabers. The skill Lightsaber isn't about how to switch your grip on a staff, or how to pommel bash with a sword. It's about how to handle weapons with blades made of... uh... whatever lightsabers blades are made of. (light, plasma, particle streams, whatever). |
I agree. However, the different types of lightsabers may require a different fighting style. The longer hilt on a lightstaff would require different moves, as well as making the hilt a larger target for an opponent making a hilt strike. In addition, if the second blade is active, a lightstaff adept will be unable to make certain moves or to attack from certain angles without risking damage to himself. Therefore, allowing a Jedi with a lightstaff to specialize in lightstaff (as opposed to general skill with lightsabers, lightfoils, lightwhips or lightlances - my term for dual-setting sabers) makes perfect sense, as the lightstaff is the weapon that the character is using and is most familiar with).
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Naaman wrote: |
No it's not. |
Do you shoulder your handguns?
How many feet long is the sight radius of your favorite pistol?
Do you cup both hands together on your rifles, or hold your pistols under the barrel?
Pistols and rifles do have some major similarities, but the differences vastly outnumber them, just because of differences in size and shape, regardless of other important, but variable factors like projectile velocity. |
I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'm just going to make this one post. My objective isn't to necessarily change your mind, but everything you do in shooting is designed to establish a stable, consistent platform. How you hold the gun is more of a natural evolution of the size and shape of the gun (yes, there are some technical considerations when it comes to grip for various types, but the principals are the same across the spectrum).
Based on what you're saying, firing from the kneeling position or the prone position would change the type of weapon you're using, and therefore require a separate specialization, since you're changing the way the weapon is being manipulated. A crossbow is held a lot like a rifle; everything that the shooter does between taking aim and firing is the same as for a rifle, so why shouldn't that allow the crossbow to be fired using the shooter's blaster: blaster rifle specialization?
Projectile velocity is irrelevant because every single manufacturer achieves different projectile velocities within the same caliber, and, there are rifles that fire "pistol" rounds, and pistols that fire "rifle" rounds. Should a 9mm rifle use the blaster pistol specialization?
I don't mean to sound like a jerk here, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. What I can tell you is that practice with one type of firearm (especially pistols), will improve your shooting with all types of firearms. Pistols have the best effect in this regard because the are the easiest to identify your mistakes, and they are the hardest to establish a stable platform (due to a lack of fore grip and butt stock). On the other hand, practicing with a pump shotgun with a bead sight is also a good learning experience, since you have to manually cycle the action between shots (thus ruining your sight picture). You also have to "imagine" a rear sight and center the bead on it if you want to hit dead on (I use slugs for this, but you can tell even with buck shot if your shot was straight or not). A shotgun like this forces you to re-create your solid shooting platform with each shot so even though it has the butt stock and the fore grip, there is some good learning there.
All that being said, if a double lightsaber can get a specialization, then so can a regular lightsaber. Although, a better example, would, I guess, be that if a double sword can get a specialization, and a regular sword can get a specialization, then so should a regular lightsaber, since a double lightsaber is to a lightsaber as a double sword is to a sword. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Just had a thought about this. Sure, Lightstaves look cool and such, but what are the disadvantages? One of the most obvious (to me, at least) is the limitation on available moves when the second blade is active. This is covered by the increased base difficulty to wield a lightstaff as opposed to a lightsaber (Very Difficult as opposed to Difficult), but I've also noticed that there are certain "power" moves which are almost impossible to perform with the second blade active, such as overhead strikes, two-handed strikes, or pretty much any attack that requires a follow-through. Should the lightstaff also have a damage penalty when used in two-blade mode to reflect that limitation? I know under the RAW, a -1D damage penalty will mean little to a Jedi using Lightsaber Combat, but still...
Thoughts?
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Once your lightsaber combat power is up, the increased difficulty also becomes pretty negligible too.
I'm not sure that the "power attacks" are particularly limited. The weapon is two handed, and if leverage is anything (which in melee-like weapons it REALLY is), then it's still probably going to carry quite a lot of follow-through, even if it can't come as far around as its single bladed counterpart.
Though, of course, never having handled anything quite like a double bladed weapon, I can't say for certain.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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True, under the RAW, it won't matter much. I've come up with a few house rules to "water down" the damage potential of lightsabers, as well as doing away with Lightsaber Combat and folding it into an expanded form of combat sense, so a -1D damage penalty would be more noticeable there than under the RAW.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | Once your lightsaber combat power is up, the increased difficulty also becomes pretty negligible too.
I'm not sure that the "power attacks" are particularly limited. The weapon is two handed, and if leverage is anything (which in melee-like weapons it REALLY is), then it's still probably going to carry quite a lot of follow-through, even if it can't come as far around as its single bladed counterpart.
Though, of course, never having handled anything quite like a double bladed weapon, I can't say for certain. |
Perhaps if one read the rule as if you fail BY the 10 or more (15 or more for the staff) you hit yourself is just that, rather than just failing the base difficulty.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if failure by 15 or more is right, as it actually makes the saber less likely to hit himself with it, when having two saber blades should make it more likely.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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