persuasion by NPCs

[Barrataria]

I was prepping for a session and got to thinking about NPCs use of persuasion (con, etc) skills. How do you all run these in practice? If the NPC makes a high roll, does he/she convince the PC automatically? At some point it ends up like a charm person spell in D&D, and that doesn't seem like the right way to handle it.

Or, are persuasion dice for NPCs only for use against other NPCs?
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"A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing"- George Lucas

[DougRed4]

That's a great question, actually. I can't recall it ever coming up for me, but what I generally do is do both a mix (roll of dice/skill and role-playing). I put a lot of emphasis on the roleplaying, but if an NPC did some phenomenal roll (say, a bunch of exploding 6's), then I'd highly encourage the player to play as if they just believed what that character was telling them.
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green

[Mikael Hasselstein]

I don't think I'd ever try to roll a persuasion for NPC->PC, except maybe (secretly) to suggest how persuasive I should try to be in the way that I verbally portray that character. Now, obviously, if I - as a GM inhabiting that character - am not very persuasive, then that character's persuasiveness is diddled.

[Barrataria]

[Mikael Hasselstein]

[garhkal]

[DougRed4]

Yeah, that's one of my issues with leaving it completely to one or the other (completely the GM, which is based on that person's skill and not the actual character's) or rolls (which takes all the fun role-playing out of it).

One funny story that this reminds me of. Nearly 30 years ago in our V&V (supers) game, one armored hero (think Iron Man) was in a medieval world and was supposed to slay a dragon. He got to the beast's cave and the the GM role-played the encounter out. He ended up convincing the hero PC (Pulsar) that he (the dragon) was the one in the right, that all of the stories by the townspeople were inaccurate propaganda that painted him in a bad light! Pulsar ended up becoming convinced (solely through role-play) that the dragon was telling the truth, and ended up fighting the townspeople on the dragon's behalf! Only later did the GM reveal that he'd succeeded on a Mind Control roll, and had (basically) mentally persuaded Pulsar to follow him!

Now this is a fun story, and we found it to be really awesome. But what if the GM isn't as persuasive (and convincing) as my friend was?
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green

[garhkal]

Exactly.. I know some people who suck like crazy trying to 'con/lie' to others.. Should they not DM cause any NPC they try to RP conning the pcs will inadvertently suck as well?
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Lane Arroway]

One of my recent adventures involved an ISB agent disguised as a security officer on a space station. The pc's new(farseeing) that an imperial officer was going to kill an ally of theirs. Long story short, when the crisis began the pc's encounter this security officer, but because he was disguised and behave approprietly they didn't notice. In fact, one pc declared to roll con against him because he was suspicous. The agent beat his roll. Was he telling the truth or just a good lier? Later, the jedi tried to receptive telepathy the guy. He susceded, but his suface thoughts only relayed a distrust of the pcs. This the jedi viewed as normal since they were the visitors and possibly responsible for the crisis.

I guess a con is only a con when its revealed not to be true. My advise is to tell it like the truth. Don't roll on part of the gm character until the player decides to call the bluff.

As for persuasion it hasn't really come up in 15+ years of star wars. Usually, a pc's friend needs help - of course we'll come!
The rebel leaders says go on the mission - yes sir!
Help me Obi-wan Kenobi, your my only hope....

Persuasion on the part of a gm character is usually part of the story hook or a side plot. "Hey, I know your taking off to save that princess, but can you look after my cat? My wife and I are going to Alderaan and the ship charges waay too much for animals. It would mean alot..."
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"This job is 90% talking to people and 10% shooting at them."

[griff]

I always played that persuasion and con were skills used by the players on NPCs not used by the NPCs on the players. If the GM told the players to roll against this NPC how is an Imperial trying to spy on the Rebellion, even if the PCs fail their roll the cats out of of the bag, at least to the players. These skills are best used by pre rolls by the GM, and the results described in the narrative. A failed con roll by an Imperial spy NPC would be described by using the wrong slang, or the details of there uniform would be off enough to make the PCs suspicious enough to want to roll against the NPC's failed roll. If the NPC's roll was successful the only time that it would be discovered would be at the dramatically correct moment.
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"EXECUTE ORDER 67. Wait a minute, that doesn't sound like order 67..... No, wait. Yes, yes it does. EXECUTE ORDER 68" Palpatine's last moments - robot chicken.

[Whill]

I've also always gone by the standard that PCs cannot be ordered or persuaded (by NPCs or other PCs) to do or believe anything they didn't want to, so all of these interactions are roll-played out. The only time I would even have a PC roll is if the player told me they wanted their character to see if he could tell if the other character was lying. I would then have opposed rolls, and if the other character was lying, then the outcome of the opposed rolls would determine how believable what the other person said was.

But ultimately, the player is still free to not believe a con no matter how low his role was. As GM I don't try to convince the player the PC should believe it beyond my portrayal of a NPC trying to make the PC believe him. Players never have to do what they are ordered to do so the command skill isn't even rolled against them. I follow the bargaining rules when the PC is trying to buy something (and the price is negotiable), but the player doesn't have to accept the final price and the PC can still choose take it or leave it.

The only time I might have rolls to make PC do something against his will may be when physically tortured (druggings, food and sleep-deprivation, beatings or other pain-infliction). A PC may be forced to reveal information against their will in these situations because it is easy for a player to say their PC wouldn't cave. But cases like this are very rare in my game so this wouldn't come into play very often.
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[shootingwomprats]

I used to be of the school of thought that did not allow PCs to use their skills against another PC. Over time I have changed this opinion. First, it seems silly that skills and such work against NPCs, not just mook NPCs but even the special NPCs. Second, a lot of players do not play their attributes as they are, having a great deal more knowledge or skill they roleplay above and beyond what their character would have. To balance this out I require them to make skill checks and to allow others to influence them. I look at allowing this as not only an application of the rules but a roleplaying aid.
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Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter

[cheshire]

I've done a fair bit of role play mixed with roll play in terms of NPC on PC persuasion as well as PC on PC persuasion. With a good mix of seasoned players, it is sometimes quite a lot of fun. I've been in a situation where OOC I knew the PC was lying to my character, but she had some seriously good lines, and my character wasn't the brightest. I knew I was following a course that was against my character's best interest, but I played it with all the conviction that he would have had. I actually had a blast!
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[shootingwomprats]

Cheshire that is fun roleplaying, but if we are honest most do not play that and do not play their attributes correctly either. It does seem the more mature gamers pick up on this and make allowances. I always like to play to the weaknesses AND strength of both my attributes and skill levels.
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Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter

[garhkal]

On the subject of Pc's using their Per skills against one another, i say let them choose.
If they don't want to do it, then neither will the command skill since it is also a Per skill.
If they want command to work though, then by extension so too should con/persuasion etc.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!