Gray Jedi

[shootingwomprats]

Are there are rules floating around out there that have been developed for:

Gray Jedi (this would include Gray Paladins, Voss Mystics, Jensaarrai, and Imperial Knights).
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Don Diestler
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[Naaman]

I've seen dozens of renditions of the so-called gray Jedi. All of them poorly executed, in my opinion.

Then again, I subscribe to the traditional viewthat there is no middle ground: walking the line, so to speak, is something I would treat as rules abuse or munchkinism, anxd would eventually start doing things like giving double DSPs for infraction, requiring the expenditure of all FPs and CPs to atone for a single DSP, etc.

In any case, you are probably best off making a house rule tailored to you specific campaign, as most of what is out there is designed by, and for, power gamers.

[Ral_Brelt]

I agree. Gray Jedi = 'I'm Chaotic Neutral!!!'

The only reason I've ever seen someone want to play such a char is to use all the cool Dark Jedi abilities without having to be a bad guy. If that's what your table wants and you can stomach Timmy Power Gamers, then your best bet is to brew on your own as you know your PCs better than any of us. Please dont take offense to my commentary or position, I've just had a player I thought responsible enough to play such go all Timmy after he got the nod to go gray.

[Naaman]

But... in order to try and be helpful, here's a possibility:

A character may use abilities that cause physical harm in any situation where a lightsaber would be allowed. After the encounter, give the character a willpower roll (difficulty based on case by case), and failure results in a DSP.

[Jedi Skyler]

While I've not read a great deal about the Gray Paladins, I have read the Coruscant Nights trilogy, where one of the characters is a GP. It seems to me that the biggest difference between them and the Jedi is that they feel no need to wield a lightsaber. That's not to say that they can't, but they are free to become proficient with other weapons.

I've not personally seen any write-ups on any of the types you've mentioned; I've only read about them in the novels. I agree that your best bet is likely to do your own house rule set for them; that will let you dictate the way you want them to be run. It may not jive exactly with what your players want, but if you're not comfortable running a dark Jedi campaign (which is pretty much what this will be, I'm figuring), it's the best way for you to put controls in place to either make your players still consider their actions, or face losing their characters. And if that happens, the lost players' characters should most DEFINITELY come back and bite them in the @$$.

[Naaman]

One thing I have done is made. up some additional alter powers based on the prequel trilogy.

Force Push/Strike (a branch on the telekinesis tree) which causes damage according to Alter skill, but never more serious than stun damage unless the alter roll is 20 over the strength roll. 30 over incapacitates, but that is the max the power can do.

I also made a power called Sunder. Its essentially a separate branch on the telekinesis tree that allows the character to destroy physical matter with his alter skill) crushing it, disintegrating it, shattering it, etc).

Finally, there is Warp Matter. By touching an object, the character can shape it like clay OR can alter its state (solid/liquid/gas).

[garhkal]

In our sparks group we have an order called the Cryoshock brotherhood who are like these 'gray jedi'.. They can use Dark side powers, but must maintain a balance of their FP to DSPs.. When they get out of whak, that's when stuff happens (they get warned first, then after the 2nd time, they get kicked out of the order, and as such they then need to roll for turning to the dark side as normal.)
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[Kytross]

I've never much cared for the idea that some powers give dark side points. I definitely think the rule that killing with a weapon is fine but killing with the force is a no-no.

I treat the force like a weapon. Darkside points come to you when you do naughty things. Murder, torture, etc.

There is nothing inherently evil about generating electricity from your fingertips. If you need to jumpstart your landspeeder, or recharge your lightsaber, it's a particularly useful skill to have. Force choke may be the only way to get a Wookiee out of his berzerker rage without doing him permanent damage.

Also, since the Jedi are so caught up in protecting the galaxy, they never get a chance to make all the cool stuff the Sith build, or explore creating schtuff with the force. All the jedi ever build is lightsabers and holocrons.

On a separate note: there is no such thing as gray Jedi. Did you watch TPM? Did you see Qui-Gon? It's okay to fix a bet, cheat at gambling, screw over a shopkeeper, lie to the Queen you're protecting, destroy thousands of droids, defy the Jedi Counsel and generally piss off everyone you come into contact with, rescue Jar-Jar and not get a dark side point. What else does a grey Jedi want to do that Qui-Gon didn't do?

[garhkal]

I disagree no powers should give dark side points.. Some are just inheritently evil by how the power is brought into being.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[vanir]

Our House rule for Greys is FP/DSP relationship, ie. the PC becomes a GM controlled NPC at +6DSP - FP. Rolls for GM interference in PC decisions come at +1 to 5DSP - FP. So if you have 3FP and 4DSP you're still fine but only in terms of maintaining Player control of the character, and only because our alternating GMs are prepared to multitask antiheroic and heroic campaigns within the gaming group.

In other words the only person who thinks a Grey isn't a Darksider is the PC themselves.
It comes down to the Why of Jedi Knights and the nature of the Force.

"If power corrupts, then absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Howe.

Morality is often merely a point of view and always within a context. Moral for a cat isn't necessarily moral for a human being, moral for one cultural environment isn't so for another.
The Force is like tapping into the very fabric of the primordeal universe, yet something to which all things belong and own. It is a part of your physical body and yet intrinsically the physical body of others, manipulating the Force is both using your personal tools and at the same time it is directly interfering with others.

The Jedi learned early on that using the Force directly in combat with another is inherently immoral. Those which convinced themselves it was merely amoral simply fell to the Darkside which was obvious to all others around them despite their rationalization.
What they did was construct combat tools like the lightsabre, the use of which you can enhance with the Force by merely using it directly upon yourself rather than others during combat, and the lightsabre acts as a proxy that you can combat with and maintain no direct influence of another lifeform using the Force that you share between you despite ostensible difference of opinion (ie. trying to kill each other).

That distance kept by using a tool with the Force rather than direct Force attack of another is what helps keep the Jedi from being overwhelmed by a power that no sentient could possibly control. It is an ultimate power, so it will by default, corrupt them utterly. Even if it is just to start acting like a benevolent deity, by default this is the rape of free will in others to lead and command their own destinies.

So, DSP powers get you DSP. Jedi don't like people with DSP. But as a House rule we let you keep PC control so long as you keep your FP ahead of your DSP, and you can be the kindly darksider who helps little old ladies by Force Lightning cars that were going to run her over, and she will thank you (with fear) and others will respect you (with fear) and Jedi won't like you very much.

[Naaman]

I agree with both the above posts.

[Mikael Hasselstein]

[Kytross]

[Naaman]

I'm not so sure: powers like Force lightning require the user to tap into his anger and rage to manifest the power. Also, things like Vapaad would not be controversial if "intent" was the only factor to consider.

Also, powers like Force choke put the target into a state of fear and somewhat prolonged suffering, while the user maintains the power and watches. Consider Anikin using it on Padme... he didn't kill her with it, but imposed his will over her normal life functions, effectively using the Force against life (that is, against the Force itself).

Yoda, on the other hand, knocked out some guardsmen by slamming them against the wall. Instant, and no real damage done.

It could be argued that since Palpatine was "the" Sith lord, using telekinesis to chuck him across the room was effectively using the Force against a parsite, of sorts... destroying him would restore balance and therefore it was an appropriate application of the Force. Then again, maybe not....

[Dromdarr_Alark]

To me, the Force is beyond the individual, and there is no gray area.

First, intentions do matter, but so do emotions. If the Force is called upon when the user is overcome by dark emotions, then there is a darkside point. The reason Vaapad is so dangerous is because it forces you to use dark emotions to the point where they almost overcome you. So I do think there are Force powers that are inherently dark, and there is further evidence in my next point.

There is no gray area of the Force; there is only the Force and the perversion of the Force. The Force seeks the good in itself. There is no part of the Force that seeks evil. The Dark Side, on the other hand, is the perversion of the Force; it is the attempt to control and change the Force into something it does not intend to be. The Dark Side is the imbalance of the Force. Therefore, bringing balance to the Force would be the destruction of the Dark Side.

Could there still be individuals who claim to walk the gray area between light and dark? Yes, they can still exist, but their perception of what the Force is is flawed. Since they use both darkness and light, and the "light" is simply the Force and darkness is the corruption of it, then they are darksiders, but just to a lesser degree.

The naming of the corruption of the Force as the Dark Side created a false duality. Since there is a Dark Side, we would want to think that there is another pole called the Light Side, and that there is a spectrum between them. It is misleading, and many sentients in the galaxy can think that, thus creating cults like the Gray Jedi or the Revanites. But there are no poles and there is no spectrum; there is only the Force and the corruption of it.

A healthy body is like the Force. Everything is doing what it is supposed to do to keep it alive and functioning in harmony. Disease is like the Darkside. When diseased, the body is at war with itself and becomes destructive. There is no way to be half diseased and half healthy. You either have a disease or you don't - you either corrupt the Force or you don't.

This is how I view the Force.


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"I still wouldn't have a roll for it - but that's just how I roll."