Custom races, broken, GM won't fix

[Tahlorn]

Looking for some advise on how to deal with a persistant character problem in my group, and a very diplomatic way. Tried to bring it up to the GM a few times, but he is very, VERY stubborn. Long post ahoy!

OK, been having an issue with my GM for a while. He started playing in high school, and it was know as "The Days of Bull-s***". You know, blow stuff up, impossible gear, and new races that were practically invincible. Well, that ended, and the characters that were from then iether are unable to be played, or lost thier equiptment and were hacked down to real size. But there is a thing which still lingers. Vampires.

They created Vampires as an alien species / race, and was unstoppable. My current GM revamped the vamps, to make them a bit less potent. But in my opinion, they are still WAY too powerful. Here are thier starting stats, as of now:

VAMPIRES
Attribute dice: 15d (21 for PC)
Dex 4d-6d
Knw 2d-4d
Prc 3d-5d
Str 4d-6d
Mch 1d-2d
Tch 1d-2d
Move: 20

Abilities:
Fangs: str+2d damage
Claws: str+1d damage
Regeneration (like the Gen'Dai, grow back limbs in a week or two, reattach severed limbs in a day)
+2d to Search / Track
Starting magic: Mind Control 1D (can be upped as a skill later)
-3D to everything if in direct sunlight
They have 'blood count', which means they need blood, and after a certain amount of time without it, they go crazy. But apprently every neighborhood grocer and hospital just sells the stuff off the shelf, according to how our game sessions go, so it is never an issue.

Sure, the sunlight penalty is bad, but the GM who made these (and is our main SW GM) runs it as if you are in a room with ambient light from the sun, but not direct rays, then you are fine. I have brought up the fact that these characters are way too powerful, but he always say "they are hacked down from what they used to be". What's worse is the fact that his girlfriend has been playing with him for a while, and all but two of her characters (she has a bunch) are vampires. He started a rule of only allowing book characters (me and the other players supported this, minus the girlfriend), then next session when she pulled out a Vamp as her character and we asked about his new rule, he said that it was just an idea, but thought against it. I think it is because his girlfriend only has one book character, and is wussy compared to her vampires.

Another non-book race which he made specifically for his girlfriend is Angels. This is Arch-Angels, warriors. I dont have the stats, but they are very similiar to vamps, minus the natural weapons, but can fly and have magic naturally (the Yappi stuff I believe). I made one, and this is what I can get of thier stats:

ANGELS
Atribute dice- 15d (21d for PC) Wow, same as the vamps
Attribute Min/Max- same as vamps effectively
move 10, flying 23
+2d resist con
No aging
Magic:
Boost Attribute 3D
Psychokenisis 3D
Light 3D
can get:
Darkness
Speed Healing

And now we go into what he does to make it even more broken- thier specialized gear.

The vampires have vampiric blades, which do something like str+4d damage, can only be lifted by vampires, and are nearly indestructable. This comes from the fact that apparently you have to do a hell mission to get the sword (I saw one, all it was was a difficult combat scene that can be made easy with the GM making one bad roll), so I think the main vampire player didn't want to lose her sword. I am unsure if they have special armour that boost thier abilities, which brings me to the next point....

Angels. OK, they are powerful, and naturally come with magic abilities. Then, they can also get specialty swords and armour. If they have all thier armour on (which looks like fantasy plate, but is better than bounty hunter armour and no dex penalties) they get +2d to all thier magic. The GM's idea of power control? "All the armour needs to be there to give the bonuses." How often does a character loose a gauntlet or breastplate, Or how often is it destroyed without the character being out of commision as well? Thier sword stats:

ANGELIC BLADE:
Dmg: str+3d+2
double handed
+2d to Melee combat, Melee parry, and to thier Magic.
As vampiric blades, can't be detroyed, heroic lifting for non-angels. Ugh.

What I find odd is that when the GM's girlfriend is unable to use one of these piece due to being broken or left behind (unconcious, rest of us drag her back to hte ship, cant carry the damn sword onto the ship), she acts like her characters are now useless without the gear. Even with thier powerful stats! Also, if it is an angel, she has a mentor who will actually retrieve these items for her and deliver them to her (he can teleport apparently) a few scenes later.

The GM runs a bunch of single missions for his girlfriend, so she has gotten used to doing her own thing, and thus is hard to work with, and tries to do the mission on her own (which with her stats, is highly possible). There was one incident where I was playing a pure technician/mechanic who could repair any computer system or droid with her eyes closed (was effectively Ed from Cowboy Bebop). Compelte non-combatant, all she had was as suped-up droid disabler. Well, we were supposed to steal a new ship. We all split up to find it in a series of hangars. The Angel finds it, and so does my character at the same time. The Angel does not radio the rest of the group, but instead proceeds to kill almost every gaurd in the room. I start to sneak over to the ship, being that I am the only one in the group able to fly the damn thing. Well, the Agnel casts Darkness in the room, so now I can't see and cant get to the ship easily. I finally get my bearings, but right then the Angel with the 1d technical and mechanical casts "Enhance Attribute", gets like +4d to her Mech for a s*** load of rounds, and takes off. She keeps recasting when it wears off (a beginning level angel with all gear has 7d to cast it), and then picks us all up. I practically bully myself into the cockpit, and take over when the Angel goes to talk to her mentor. But other than a couple simple piloting rolls to get us to where we need to be, the mission was over. So, the powerful character with over-powerful armour rendered not only me, but the other two player characters, completely useless.

So, how do I deal with the GM about the broken armour and characters which he has built for his girlfriend (yes, other players can make one as well, but we find it disgusting), and sees no problem with it? Especially being that the GM's girlfriend has really no other characters besides about 5 vampires and 2 angels. It has made making a beginning level book character hard, as we keep comparing it to what the vamps are capable of?

Thanks for any help, and your patience for readling my rant.

~Tahlorn

[Endwyn]

Well, the GM obviously has issues seperating the real world from the game world. (As he allows his girlfriend to be the center of the plot, have a character overpowered compared to the others, ect) Because of that behavior I would expect one of two reations: Either he will realize where you are coming from and try to change or he will get upset and retaliate in the game or real world.

The first thing you need to decide is if it's even worth playing if this continues. If it's not, then you have nothing to lose. If you still want to play, you have more to think about.

If you're going to talk to him about this, make sure you have specifics and examples in case he asks. Let him know what's bothering you, only speak for you; don't speak for the other player. (If he wants to talk to the GM he should make his own time, and examples. They should reflect what each of you think seperatly, so he can see the similar issues you each have without them being identical and him feeling cornered.) Let him know whether your complaint is with the race specificly or if the complaint is with a 21 attribute dice + freebes PC being allowed to run with "standard PC's" and being outclassed.

Most importantly be honest, let him know the truth. Don't yell or acuse, if you do he won't even listen to what you're saying since he'll naturally take the defensive.

Those races are overpowered to a standard PC, but wouldn't be a problem if they all ran together in a game. Just not a game ya'll want to play.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Morpheus Grifullkin]

I like those races. But i never thought i would think of the day to see a vampire to come in SW, Also Angels to. Angels would be like jedi to me.

Heres my idea and if you don't like just so say I wont get mad. I just want everybodys opinion on this.

DEAMON

Home Planet: Danasha
Skills: Whatever they want to have for skills.
Hieght: 10 Foot
Wieght: 300 Pounds
Force Sensitive: Yes

Physical Description: Buff, Very Darkred eyes.

Attribute dice: 20d (30 for Player Character)
Dex- x4
Knw- +3
Prc- +3
Str- x5
Mch- +3
Tch- +3
Move: 30

Special Abilitys:
Control Objects: Willpower +2d.
Control Liveing,Breathing People: Willpower +2d.
Sense Thoughts: Willpower +2d.
Transformation: Has to be biten by a Deamon Symbeot to transform in to a deamon.
Flying: 2d+1 to try and lift off.
Claws: Str+4d+ Damage
Tail: 7 foot tail (very sharp), 4d+2 to use Damage Roll.
Regeneration: Growable Legs,Arms & Healable Wounds 3d+1.
_________________
Morpheus Grifullkin
AKA
Kronn Grifullkin

[Soniv]

Personally, I wouldn't allow these character types to be PCs. At all. I mean, WEG suggests that Noghri shouldn't be PCs, and they look like wimps next to the vampires and angels.

Even for an NPC, 15D is way overpowered for standard attribute dice, and the extra abilities only make it worse. -3D to all abilites in sunlight is simply too weak of a limitation for the vampires. Most, if not all mythology about them states that any form of sunlight or UV radiation equals instant death. Also, there should be a bonus to kill vampires with certain types of attacks; the reason vampires worked in most stories was because they had various achilles' heels while also being super-powerful. So anyone with a certain amount of vampire lore could figure out a way to kill them. Hence why there were human vampire hunters. Personally, the way I would run vampires would be to retain the original stats before they turned, give them antiaging immortality, the weaknesses of vampirism, maybe some fangs, and up the maximum dice for STR and DEX by 2D. Note, I didn't say their current stats, I said their maximum. They would still have to train to become stronger. Also, if they do not feed on blood for two days, they lose 1D to all stats each day until one of the stats reaches 0D, causing them to die, or they feed, which restores stats by 1D per day of feeding. In fact, I might post these stats sometime. Would be an interesting counterstat.

Angels, on the other hand, have the limitation of being forced to serve the deity that gives them their power, and likewise should not be PCs. I see them as being along the lines of a deus ex machina, a plot device to come down and save the PCs or give them advice. I'm not a religious person, but I have read the Bible for a good bedtime story from time to time, and it seems that all the angels really did was act as an envoy to Yahweh and tell the people what needed to be done. Oh, and they fornicated with human women, but they got smote for that. I would say that Angels shouldn't be PCs at all. I have no good idea for a counterstat though at the moment.

As for the GM and his girlfriend, I say that he should leave his bedroom politics out of the game, and either play alone with her or not at all. She shouldn't be monopolizing the game simply because she's in a relationship with him. I agree with Morpheus though, vampires and angels just don't seem to fit the feel of SW. And Morpheus, that Demon template...way overpowered. That would be another no-PC template.

[Endwyn]

Soniv,

I think the GM just named the races that because they have the look of what we would call Angels and Vampires; but I doubt he expected to make them true to the entire concept. I completely agree though that they don't have balancing points to counter-act the extreme bonuses. I only pointed the above out because I don't think the GM was going for a true to mythology versions of these creatures.

Morpheus Grifullkin,

He wan't looking for more overpovered races, but a solution to his GM allowing these things. I will however give you feedback on your creation.

You seem to want to make the Daemon / Demon (Deamon isn't a word) a symbiotic relationship with a host. As such, they are their own creature. They should have their own attributes, as should the host. The problem you get there is the possibility for someone to min/max both parts of the PC to the max effect. (Give the host max body attributes, min mental ones; give the symbiote max mental, min body attributes. A problem you want to avoid)

You version of attributes is beyond extreme, and not even done well. I only say this because if the attribute dice is 20D, then the PC should be 26D; or 24D and PC being 30D. The way you've written the attributes, there isn't a range - and I don't understand what you are doing with x4 or +3? If this is to the host, consider an average PC would have 3d in each attribute if leveled. So that would make the attributes (if you are doing this to the host stats):
DEX: 12D
KNO: 6D
PER: 6D
STR: 15D
MEC: 6D
TEC: 6D
That adds up to 51D of attributes, and if a PC made a host specificly for this transformation, they would max STR and DEX since those are multiplied.

As for the special abilities, why use Willpower for special effects? If you were going to have special powers, you should have each be an individual skill.

Next, the move is extreme and some of the abilities are way out there. The one that really concerns me is the biten by a symbiote to transform. It defeats the purpose of a symbiotic relationship - either it is a symbiotic relationship or it should be bitten by a daemon / demon.

If you really wanted to do that, I would build a race that was like the Go'uld from stargate. Obviously the players should play the tok'ra like group. They must chose at creation if they are going to control the host or sybiote. If the PC plays the host, as stats are per host race.

(Blended PC plays the Go'uld)
Attribute Dice: 12D
DEX: As host race
KNO: 2D/5D
PER: As host race
STR: As host race
MEC: 2D/5D
TEC: 2D/5D

Special: (All blended recieve)
Accelerated healing: The PC gets to make 2 healing rolls per day. The first is made 30-60 minutes after the damage has occured. The second roll can be made 2 hrs after the first.
Blended Knowledge: At creation only the PC may chose to distribute 3D betweenKno, Mec, or Tec skills. This represents a knowledge gained from the other. (If the PC plays the host, a symbiote skill or vice versa.)
Shared control of body: Only one mind can control the body. Each comunicates with the other constantly. If one wishes to "surface" they need meerly ask. The symbiote can however surpress the mind of the host. This is an opposed willpower roll. A sybiote who has taken an unwilling body can surpress the mind of the host so that the original consciousness is mearly a sielent observer to the actions occuring. To resurface the host mind must succeed at a very difficult willpower roll or be aided by outside influences.
Story Factor: While the PC controls one mind, they cannot control the other. Each is a distinct personality and consciousness sharing one physical shell. If so desired, the sybiote can surpress the host consciousness so fully it is unaware of any events occuring. Time may be "blacked out" or "lost". It is unknown if a host has ever so fully surpressed the symbiote's consciousness.

The above is more PC friendly. (Probably not perfect though, just better.)
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Gry Sarth]

Wow... I know each group plays the kind of game they want, and what to do in their adventure is up to them. But ARGH!!! The kind of game described here is my idea of RPG hell. If you asked me sincerely what to do about this whole situation, I'd say: RUN! Run as fast as you can, and don't look back. Eventually you'll find another GM who'll run you a decent game.

I mean, this thing has all the nasties you can find in RPG: out of universe creations, overpowered characters, overpowered weapons, completely incoherent settings, powergamers, and worst of all, a GM that favours a player due to real-life circumstances. Yuck!

What I don't understand is why are you playing the SW rpg? If you want a game with mega-powerful angels, demons and vampires, I'm sure there are a lot of RPGs out there built just for that, with all the mechanics designed to make a balanced game of this epic setting. The Star Wars rpg game is meant for the everyday hero, the brash pilot, the con man, the small-time smuggler. It's not even really meant to be played by the Big Time characters such as Lukes and Anakins.

Again, to each his own. But it seems your group is really not enjoying a good game as things are. And the problem is not the unbalanced custom races. The problem is that you're all playing the game your GM's girlfriend wants to play, but that's not the game YOU want to play.

[Tahlorn]

[Tahlorn]

[Morpheus Grifullkin]

Wow...Thanks for the opinion and now i agree that i suck at makeing SW stuff.
_________________
Morpheus Grifullkin
AKA
Kronn Grifullkin

[Esjs]

Don't angels come from "the moons of Iego" (according to young Anakin in TPM)?

Actually, I just found this webpage from the... ahem... "other" system (scroll down to the People section):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20040226geonosis

:shrug: Take it as you will...
_________________
"WHERE ARE THE CHEETOS?"

"Esjs" == "Jess"

[Endwyn]

I'll find the Outer rim book and tell you guys whatever the book said the excerpt wouldn't. Probably post it tommorow. As for star dragons - we should know about those already.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Hellcat]

The "angels come from "the moons of Iego" " thing should be on WotC's website, I believe. I think it was a preview of the afore mentioned book.

Edit: I should have checked the afore mentioned link.
_________________
FLUFFY for President!!!!

Wanted Poster

[Soniv]

I'm actually working on a counterexample for vampires now: When finished, I'll either make a new thread (Title would be Mythological Creature Templates), or simply post the stats here.

Any preferences as to where they should go, gentlebeings?

EDIT: Made the new thread, the Vampire stats I created are in it. Comments, criticisms, and all other non-vulgar expressions of opinions will be accepted.

[Akari]

Ouch... I remember a time long lost in the dark ages of puberty when I found games like that to actually be entertaining because we used to be "badass"...

In my humble opinion, this has nothing to do with Star Wars. Suggest they either play something like Spacemaster (like Rolemaster in space), or one of the D20 systems that seem to pop up like mushrooms. This has nothing to do with the background we love, so it honestly shouldn't be played with Star Wars in mind...

[garhkal]

Perhaps you need to talk to both the GM and his girlfriend with the rest of the group there. Be diplomatic about it, but also be firm and forceful if needed. I understand he (IYO) is a good gm otherwise, but one who shows such obvious distain for the players and such overt favoritism to his GF, is NOT imo a sign of a good gm.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!