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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:10 pm Post subject: Adjusting encounter issues, due to PLAYER mistakes.. |
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Though this is ADND specific, i thought i would cut n paste it here to see what all those here think of the situation..
| Quote: | Alright, got a philosophical DM dilemma (and if anyone in my game winds up here, please hit the back button  ).
I'm running a one-off homebrewed 1e adventure designed to be challenging. There's a time limit (1 week in-game) with dire consequences - managing the resource of time versus spells/HP/etc is key, as well as being judicious about fighting vs the alternatives. Levels are about 6-8.
The players are a mix of our regular campaign folks with a few new additions and they seem to have a tough time gelling strategy-wise. Been some decent individual play, but as a group they've had a real hard time putting together cohesive plans and contingencies. Part IMO due to some personality friction and part due to some players taking leadership roles when it's probably not their forte (and our 'usual' leaders taking a back-seat for this one).
Latest dilemma - they need an artifact from a faction of very dangerous elves (modeled somewhat after late-period Comanches), had a neutral site parley that while not ending in bloodshed certainly didn't go "well", then decided to find the elven hideout with the possibility of further negotiations. They're around half-strength (low-ish HP, casters burned most of their spells & healing).
They found the settlement which I tried to describe as a natural fortress - "you're standing in what appears to be a rocky choke-point" "this is an ideal place for an ambush" "the clearing in front of you is walled by the ridges like a killing-ground" "there's an oppressive silence, you're almost certain you're being watched". The Druid went scouting ahead solo on the ridge as the rest of the party waited in the aforementioned 'chokepoint'.
Druid was ambushed by some elves - the party had no further plan for this contingency, so when they heard a clash of arms somewhere up on the ridge there was some indecision. This was broken by one PC running into the clearing (a mage of all things), followed by another in support, then the whole party including whoever had astutely recommended withdrawal. Basically they charged right into to the teeth of a stronghold at 1/2 strength - suddenly grim silent figures appear on the ridgetops, the air is filled with arrows and the lilt of an elven chant...
Ended the session with that, next week we'll play out the battle. As-written this encounter was designed to test them at full strength, better yet if they used stealth or strategy to gain an advantage. In their current condition and tactical situation I'd say a TPK is likely - it doesn't look good. And these elves are take-no-prisoners types.
So while it breaks my heart to "reward bad behavior", I'm on the fence about dialing the difficulty back.
The TL;DR version: Any of you ever done this - reduced encounter strength not because you realized you'd made it too tough, but specifically because of player blundering? A TPK ends the adventure (not quite half over) and due to the time-limit there's no "new party arrives seeking revenge" option.
And in the bigger picture, any suggestions for encouraging better strategic thinking/planning/leadership from players? Or should I just kill em all & let the Gods sort them out? |
Now for note, his one off's run 5-6 game sessions...
So who here, would alter the situation?
Who here would change out the baddies to those who WOULD take prisoners?
Who here would fudge results to forestall a TPK?
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Quetzacotl
Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 281
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Well, first of all, they tried to have a diplomatic solution here, but instead got attacked. Worst thing is, the Druid wanted to "scout" ahead (or whatever he thought he was doing) and got ambushed... the thing is, what where the players supposed to do? Should they have just let the Druid die? I don't think so, that would be kinda stupid. So they more or less HAD to attack, in order to help their companion.
So in all, I would simply diminish the strength of the enemies, make it a tough fight, were some of them go down, without killing them (don't know about ADND rules, but they shouldn't be dead instantly when getting to 0 HP but have some survival time... in 4E you loose 1 HP every round and only die once you're at -1/2 your maximum HP (so a PC with 50 HP would only truly be dead at -25 HP or below)).
I would go with the following suggestions, from "prefer the most" to "just a suggestiong, but woudn't really do it":
1. Decrease the Strength of the enemies so that the fight is tough, but not a sure party wipe.
2. Give the PC a chance to flee, let the enemie Elves shout at them that they're not wanted here and that they should "leave or die".
3. Making them take the PCs prisoner, only knocking them unconcious.
4. An NPC appears (for example a Ranger), that helps them in the fight and could die instead of the PCs.
5. Maybe there is some discord with the Elves, some don't want to kill them while some do so they're standing each other in the way
Regardless of suggestion, it's imho always a valid strategy to fudge the results. Shouldn't be too obvious of course, so it can be still a very hard fight, if thats what happens in the end. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Run the battle as written. If they get wiped out so be it. The best way to show them the error or thier ways is to let the chips (or PCs) fall where they may, and then explain to them later where they went wrong.
From the description of the session, they've done several things wrong:
1) While they may or may not have been repsonsible for the poor negotiations, they did decide to try to go the the elves hideout. Doing that to someone who you are not on good terms with is just plain stupid and certain to provoke a hostile reaction. It the elves hideout, not a boy scout camp ground.
2) They did this while at low strength. So when they do provoke the elves they are less likely to fight the elves off.
3) After seeing what the elves hideout was like, they pressed on anyway.
4) The druid tried to scout out the enemy desipte being told that they were being watched! Not only is that guaranteed to fail, but it makes that much harder for the PCs to claim that they are peaceful. Peaceful people who want to be friendly don't go sneaking up to the hideout.
5) They let one guy walk into a kill zone on his own, with no backup plan in case things turned sour, while almost certain theyt they were being watched.
6) After seeing that the druid got ambushed (no surprise there) the rest of the group ran into the kill zone to rescue him. I have to disagree with Quetzacotl here. Letting the druid die wouldn't have been stupid; the whole group running into the ambush to die with him was stupid. Very,very stupid.
So frankly, they asked for this and got it coming.
The worst thing you could do here, IMO is to tone down the encounter and let the PCs live. If you do that, they will failed to spot what they did wrong, as everything worked out alright in the end. In fact, that will probably reinforce the bad thinking and tactics that got them into this mess.
If you must save the characters, let the elves take them prisoner. Then you could use that to lead into a chance to escape or maybe the group could be sent on a task for the elves to prove their "good intentions". You could even give the PCs a chance to surrender now, and let them try to explain their behavior to the elf chieftain. |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2269
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I tend to agree that they've done so many boneheaded moves that they kind of deserve to be slaughtered.
For me it really depends on the genre and campaign on whether or not to inflict the actual consequences for their blunders. I've never done a TPK, but if the players insisted on pushing ahead (despite numerous warnings by me), I would probably allow it to happen.
Having them all captured (and severely wounded) also gets the point across, while not completely wiping them out.
If there can't ever be serious consequences, it really cheapens the thrill and excitement when the PCs do succeed, IMV.
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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