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cheshire
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 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Draven wrote: | | I disagree a great many fans that would watch a movie know who Starkiller is maybe not his name as such but that was a hugely popular game. As for people will not know other facts from the books this is true to a degree maybe but remeber this is Star Wars. It is a 30+ year fran. I am saying nor do I want them to bring in all the EU stuff. What I said is I do not want things like killing a character before he dies in the books. I do not want something that would so greatly alter the EU that it would have to be rebooted. |
I think that this is an interesting point. There is certainly a section of the fanbase that wants to see something identifiable. There's also another segment of people who "like Star Wars" who may have seen all the movies and will see the new ones, but won't have a clue why Chewie is dead and why an aged Luke is married to some redhead. So some of us, the Star Wars universe isn't even recognizable after the complete degradation of the Empire. Though that says something sad about Star Wars writing that they didn't know what to do for a good solid enemy without the Empire. Yes, we had the Vong war, but most of us gave up once we hit the Vong.
If we're trying to catch the whole fanbase up to steam on the universe up to that point I can't imagine what the opening crawl looks like.
At the same time, I'm not anxious to see the writers turn their back on the parts of the EU I did like. But I'm not anxious to see them include the things I didn't.
It's a pickle. I'm glad I'm not a writer for that. But we also have to remember that George has already given the basic treatments of the storyline. He said (if that's worth anything) that he wrote the basic outline of it, and will let others flesh it out. He's also not really read a whole lot of the EU. So, who knows where this is going to go.
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Still leaves the initial point of all of this untouched. It is not that Disney or JJ is going to try to ruin Star Wars at all. It is why would anyone think they are going to make a movie that the oldtime Star Wars fans like better than George Lucas? Why would someone that can not handle the fact that George changed who shot first suddenly think oh the biggest kid and family friendly movie company in the world will make a more edgey Star Wars than the man that invented it? |
I hope that's a question they're asking themselves. I mean, one answer is that Lucas, when left to his own devices, is either a great storyteller or a disastrous one. You'll see in his repertoire a series of "okay" movies and some really really bad ones. He does his best when he's in dialog with other creative geniuses. When everyone got caught up in the craze of George Lucas in the prequels and started hailing him as a genius and never questioning a move he made, then we see the natural product of that hubris.
And really, there's no way they're going to go right for everyone. There are going to be die hards that hate it. There are going to be fanboys that love it. I just hope it's an interesting story.
P.S., I don't think I've ever had someone disagree with me this much in the discussions and be so polite, intelligent, and respectful in their posts. And I thank you for that.
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Draven
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| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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I like debates not arguements. I do agree there will be diehards that hate it and fanboys that love it. The problem I see is it is the diehards that are like yea finally someone else has star wars. I think for any diehard any star wars movie that is made they will hate. I agree many people will watch the movies and know nothing of the books. Where I disagree is far fewer people will watch the movies and know nothing of the popular video games. I think it would hurt Star Wars over all to force a reboot of the bulk of the EU though. With every new movie so far old books new books and comics see an upturn in sales. But seeing as none of that is done by a Disney company at this time my fear is they will not care.
P.S. I had long thought this would turn into insults and name calling. I am very glad to have intelligent debate. It is even better that we clearly disagree on many things and can find common ground on others still |
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Jedi Skyler
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| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Draven wrote: | I like debates not arguements.
P.S. I had long thought this would turn into insults and name calling. I am very glad to have intelligent debate. It is even better that we clearly disagree on many things and can find common ground on others still |
You can thank our admins, Loc Taal and Scrawprin for that, as do I. They are RELENTLESS about telling people to shove off when they can't keep from flaming other people, and show no ability to have an intelligent discourse without resorting to insults. This is a first-rate community with first-rate people. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Draven wrote: | Where I disagree is far fewer people will watch the movies and know nothing of the popular video games. I think it would hurt Star Wars over all to force a reboot of the bulk of the EU though. With every new movie so far old books new books and comics see an upturn in sales. But seeing as none of that is done by a Disney company at this time my fear is they will not care.
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It's at this point I would start looking to something empirical to suggest something against this position, or accept similar data as evidence counter to my presumption. However, it's kind of an untested arena. Lucas has been pretty guarded about people making material about the prequel area. Certainly we've seen scant material thrown completely out because of the prequel trilogy, but no one has ever focused on PT era materiel until after the related movie had been released. So, whereas some material in the Thrawn Trilogy or Children of the Jedi or something like that, I don't think we have information to suggest what would or would not help or hurt the sales or what the intended audience expects. However, example of such minutia is hardly substantial on which to build a basis. Likewise with inclusion of such details from the EU such as the YT-2000 into ANH.
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P.S. I had long thought this would turn into insults and name calling. I am very glad to have intelligent debate. It is even better that we clearly disagree on many things and can find common ground on others still |
Since there really isn't evidence one way or another, you've force the discussion in such a direction where I have nothing left but name calling! You're a yellow bellied lillly-livered no good son of a so and so. So there. 
Seriously, though... I think that's one of the things that makes this so fascinating for us and a little scarey. We have no precedent to really understand what they might do. We'd all like our own vision of Star Wars to be carried forward. Though given that there are at least as many visions of Star Wars as there are fans, its a difficult place to be.
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Draven
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| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Which of those statements are you wanting more eveidence on. That more people have played the popular games than have read the books. Or that it would hurt star wars over all. If it is the hurt it over all I did state that is an opinion. But to reinforce it who is going to buy an old book that has not read if it contradicts the movies. When I say hurt hurt star wars over all I mean the sales and circulation of existing materials. If you want proof of the uptick in sales of existing products with the release of a new movie. The facts might be hard to prove but book store selves are full of star wars books after a new movie comes out even the old hard to find books are on the selves again. I would also use the toys as a reference when the prequels came out they once again sold the toys from the OT as well.
JJ has to be in a hard place to be in. What of a great many routes do you take with a new trilogy. It would impossible to please all the different star wars fans. I would rather like to see new characters and new stories set in the star wars universe. The time line does not matter. I just hope the people at Lucas Arts have more control over it than Disney does. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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I think I poorly phrased my point such that it was not clear. But overall, I was saying that I would usually point to some prior point in the franchise where we've seen movies cover the same things we've seen already established in the EU, though there are few points where we've seen that happen in any detail... other than Spinter of the Mind's Eye, and everyone kind of views that as some sort of aberration.
| Draven wrote: | But to reinforce it who is going to buy an old book that has not read if it contradicts the movies. When I say hurt hurt star wars over all I mean the sales and circulation of existing materials.
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An interesting idea. One that I'm curious to see how LFL handles. And what are they going to be most interested in, those people who may continue to purchase EU novels, or potential movie goers who have no idea what the Galactic Alliance or the Vong are.
My presumption is (and I'll admit that it is no more than presumption) that LFL will favor the less up to speed movie-going demographic and potential revenue than continued sales of New Jedi Order book series and the like. Though I have no real idea as to how far I think they'd take that.
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I would rather like to see new characters and new stories set in the star wars universe. The time line does not matter. I just hope the people at Lucas Arts have more control over it than Disney does. |
I'm totally in with you on that.
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Gullwind
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| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | I hope that's a question they're asking themselves. I mean, one answer is that Lucas, when left to his own devices, is either a great storyteller or a disastrous one. You'll see in his repertoire a series of "okay" movies and some really really bad ones. He does his best when he's in dialog with other creative geniuses. When everyone got caught up in the craze of George Lucas in the prequels and started hailing him as a genius and never questioning a move he made, then we see the natural product of that hubris. |
I wonder if the limitations on the technology in the seventies had the effect of putting a brake on Lucas' imagination. If he could have done Episodes IV-VI the same way he did Episodes I-III, would they have turned out the same? |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | I hope that's a question they're asking themselves. I mean, one answer is that Lucas, when left to his own devices, is either a great storyteller or a disastrous one. You'll see in his repertoire a series of "okay" movies and some really really bad ones. He does his best when he's in dialog with other creative geniuses. When everyone got caught up in the craze of George Lucas in the prequels and started hailing him as a genius and never questioning a move he made, then we see the natural product of that hubris. |
Yeah, plus the "storyline" used for the films was just a 12 page outline. So the story was only very general and needed to be fleshed out. In the OT they hired a pair of "screwball comedy" writers to work out the banter between the main cast, and that had a lot to do with the popularity of the OT. With the prequel, it looked like Lucas tried to write witty banter but more often than not, missed the mark.
I think that the new films are probably only going to have limited involvement from Lucas - more like the Clone Wars TV series rather than like the OT. From what I've ready Disney is planning of doing more than just Episodes 7-9.
| Gullwind wrote: |
I wonder if the limitations on the technology in the seventies had the effect of putting a brake on Lucas' imagination. If he could have done Episodes IV-VI the same way he did Episodes I-III, would they have turned out the same? |
Interesting. I know that the colors chosen in the OT were deliberately low keyed so that the colors wouldn't fade out the way they do on film over time, making it easier to maintain the original colors.
I suspect there were some limits from technology (the space battles actually pushed the technology envelope), and since the films were based in part on the style of old movie series like Flash Gordon, I think money was more of a limiting factor than technology. I suspect that i OT would have had faster ship combat, a better lightsaber duel, a completely different Catina scene, a bit more of an art deco style to it, a better wardrobe, and we would have gotten a jungle Tatooine if Lucas had had the money.
With the prequels it was probably easiest for Lucas to do what he wanted to visually, since he not only had the latest technology, but also a lot more cash, and the Star Wars franchise had a fantastic credit rating. |
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Draven
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:13 am Post subject: |
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They made it clear they will not be covering material already published. This will be a new story they have not even really stated that it will feature the main characters from the OT only rumors that they are in talk with the actors that played them. I agree they will be going for the fans that know nothing to very little of the EU. In my opinion they will go after fans of the prequels and new fans altoghter. All of the old timers hoping for a return to the good old days will be disapionted.
I just do not see how you make a movie about the original characters set after the OT and not void out some books completely. I noticed someone one here said something about movies other than the new trilogy they are making. I believe most of that is speculation I found a starwars.com that they are making two stand alone films that will not be part of ep.7 8 or 9 though I think everything else is really rumors.
I think limits on technology and funding played a large part in what we got with the OT verus the PT. To me Star Wars has always pushed special effects to a new level. As for the witty banter I am not sure that was not let out rather on purpose. The OT was on the edges of the galaxy where as the prequels where in the heart of the galaxy. I think Jar-Jar was suppose to add a funny element to them and well that did not go over well with most fans. After the Jar-Jar mistake they tired to give Obi-wan some witty banter starting in ep. 2.
As for George Lucas his only involvement will be a consultant he pretty much is done with Star Wars and movie making in general. He sold everything he owned in the film industry. What I hope is Lucas Arts ltd. has more control and say so in what happens to Star Wars than Disney does. After all it was people in Lucas Arts ltd. that set up the time line and tried to keep everything straight. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Draven wrote: | | They made it clear they will not be covering material already published. This will be a new story they have not even really stated that it will feature the main characters from the OT only rumors that they are in talk with the actors that played them. I agree they will be going for the fans that know nothing to very little of the EU. In my opinion they will go after fans of the prequels and new fans altoghter. All of the old timers hoping for a return to the good old days will be disapionted. |
Have they? What I've read so far suggests that they are looking at doing episodes 7-9 as well as new stuff. Now 7-0 strongly suggests that they want to continue on with the Lucas' original storyline. Orginally Epsiodes 4-6 were the middle trilogy in the saga, and there were supposed to be 3 more films that finsihed up the story.
THe problem was that Lucas swiped a lot of good ideas from later in the story to flesh out the OT, figuring that he'd never make all nine films. So now there are some big plot holes to take care of.
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I just do not see how you make a movie about the original characters set after the OT and not void out some books completely. |
You don't. But voiding out the books is perfectly acceptable to Lucas. He has said before that the EU canon is fine, but he doesn't feel constrained to follow it, as it is HIS story. Apparently,people had to twist his arm to accept Coruscant as the name of the capitol planet.
I fully expect a good chunk of the EU books to get retconned out of existence or somehow modified to reflect the new reality, much like Alan Dean Foster's lines about multiple Emperors in the Star Wars novelization. Yeah, the line is still in the book, but it obviously doesn't hold true or even make sense once the whole "Palpatine is a Sith who overthrew the Republic thing" came out.
I noticed someone one here said something about movies other than the new trilogy they are making. I believe most of that is speculation I found a starwars.com that they are making two stand alone films that will not be part of ep.7 8 or 9 though I think everything else is really rumors.
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I think limits on technology and funding played a large part in what we got with the OT versus the PT. To me Star Wars has always pushed special effects to a new level. |
Yes, but it pushed the effects to help tell the story, rather than falling into the trap of using the story to showcase the effects. If Lucas had had better tech available, he definitely would have done things differently, but as I mentioned earlier, he would have made the first film differently is he had had more money. Not that he didn't have a lot and even went over budget.
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As for the witty banter I am not sure that was not let out rather on purpose. The OT was on the edges of the galaxy where as the prequels where in the heart of the galaxy. I think Jar-Jar was suppose to add a funny element to them and well that did not go over well with most fans. After the Jar-Jar mistake they tired to give Obi-wan some witty banter starting in ep. 2. |
I'm pretty sure that it wasn't left out. It just wasn't very good banter. The team that did the banter in the OT had passed away by the time of the prequel. THe PRequls spend almost as much time on the fringe as the OT, and I don't think that is matters in terms of banter. Yeah Jar-Jar was supposed to add some comic relief (rumor has it, he was supposed to end up a Jedi), but he went over like a lead sail barge. It's not that there wasn't comedy in the prequels, it's that most of it wasn't very funny.
One of the good things about the banter in the OT is that it helped to show the character's moods, personalities, and interactions even when it wasn't necessarily funny ("Get that walking carpet out of my way!"). In the prequels most of banter is just throwaway one-liners placed there as an attempt to be funny. THere's not as much subtext. SOme of Obi-wan's lines in all three prequl fils have some sarcasm, irony, and/or self depreciating humor to them, but most of the rest is like a bad stand up routine.
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As for George Lucas his only involvement will be a consultant he pretty much is done with Star Wars and movie making in general. He sold everything he owned in the film industry. What I hope is Lucas Arts ltd. has more control and say so in what happens to Star Wars than Disney does. After all it was people in Lucas Arts ltd. that set up the time line and tried to keep everything straight. |
THat is a mixed blessing. While LUcas did a good job cherry picking elements of his original stroy for use in the OT, IMO he didn't choose quite so well with the prequels.
I'm not too fond of the EU continuity/ One problem I have is that it makes it hard for anybose else to tell a "big" story since the Palpatine-Vader-Skywalker theme dominates and restricts what can be done during that era. I hope they can go big with the new films. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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I completely agree with Cheshire, that Lucas was surrounded only by "yes men" (my words, not his), Rick MacCallum being the primary offender. That said, I still love the prequels, and for the most part am a big fan of them.
@Draven: I think you overestimate the influence/popularity of those video games. Even massive sales don't mean that - of the average family of father, mother, and 2.3 kids (or whatever) that, at most, only one teenaged boy (somebody who was teenaged when they came out) even know about them. I would bet you money that I could ask my 8-10 gamer friends, who rage in age from 17-50-something, and hardly any of them (if any) would know the name. And we all play this game and (by and large) LOVE the franchise! Even my son who is a video game nut (and loves SW) probably doesn't know much (or anything) about them.
My bet with JJ is that he'll make a movie with many familiar elements (as he loves the universe), but the core of his story will be emotion and characters. That seems to be his MO with his stories, and I think that will serve the masses well, and should help these films be quite successful!
Just to get in on the name calling: You are all scruffy-looking nerf herders!  In all seriousness, it's a great group of people here and it's fun to discuss/debate this stuff with you! 8)
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I suspect there were some limits from technology (the space battles actually pushed the technology envelope), and since the films were based in part on the style of old movie series like Flash Gordon, I think money was more of a limiting factor than technology. I suspect that i OT would have had faster ship combat, a better lightsaber duel, a completely different Catina scene, a bit more of an art deco style to it, a better wardrobe, and we would have gotten a jungle Tatooine if Lucas had had the money. |
I agree with those things you speculate on, atgxtg. And I think on RotJ, we would have seen a full-scale Wookiee battle (instead of the Ewoks), had he/they had the digital technology we have today.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: |
I agree with those things you speculate on, atgxtg. And I think on RotJ, we would have seen a full-scale Wookiee battle (instead of the Ewoks), had he/they had the digital technology we have today. |
Maybe/ According to Lucas, the reason why he went with Ewoks was because Chewie wound up being the techie of the group, making it hard to pass off the Wookiees as technologically primitives.
Hmm, I wonder if Chewie would have been Han's girlfriend?   |
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Draven
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:18 am Post subject: |
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What they have stated about ep. 7-9 is that they will not be making the movies about any of the books. It will be in a untold new story. This could mean following Lucas's example it will be when they are much older and will be about the childern of the characters from the OT. Could also mean they are going to make a continued story about said characters. There has still be nothing offical released on what they are doing other than making ep.7-9 as a yet untold story and at least two stand alone films.
I hear a lot about the other three films that were suppose to finish the story up not sure I believe that. George Lucas himself said as far as he was concerned the Star Wars saga was over the story was the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker which has now been told in full. So where does this information about another three movies having always been planned come from. As well the onformation that George Lucas swiped ideas from them.
I fully expect many or all of the books to get retconned out as well but I hope they do not. I also expect (and will explain later) to have the statement come out the Lucas Films ltd. has concealed it's deal with fantasy flight games.
The first films would have been closer is looks and action to the new ones (clearly what George wanted) if he had the money and the ability at the time. I think it is both they pushed the effects to tell the story but the story was designed so that it would have to push the effects. This remains true on both sets of movies.
I do not agree that they spend all that much time on the fringe maybe on the outer rim but not the fringe. Even if they do they are still people from the heart of civilations they were suppose to be more refined. "A more civilized weapon for a more civilised time." The prequels were about that more civilized time. I saw no attempts at banter between the characters witty or not other than once in a while from Obi-Wan.
Please define what you mean by "big" stories as many of the EU stories are quite grand in scope. Sure they can go "big" in the new movie but if they are just continuing the Skywalker story how "big" can they really go?
I think that gets all the points on @atgxtg first post.
As for the Fantasy Flight comment. Not sure where most of you are from but seeing as Disney is a family friendly American company that likes to keep it's name very clean and roleplaying has a bad image in America. I expect (just my theory) we will see Disney refuse to support any type of table top roleplaying game for Star Wars in the near future. This is not an attempt to bash Disney nor America I am from America just a statement of the way things are where table top roleplaying is concerned.
now @dougred4
You might be right about the games not many people consider video games cannon when it comes to movies. But I was not making refenrence to the average family I was talking about the average person that will go watch a Star Wars movie. Out of that group there are a great many more that will know of the force unleashed game than there are that will know about the fate of the jedi books.
I am not familiar with a lot of JJ's work seen very little he has done but in my opinion his Star Trek reboot while an ok movie was nothing close to Star Trek so I do not expect him to give much better treatment to Star Wars. Again my opinion and I hope I am wrong.
As for the wookie verus the ewok by the time RotJ came out he had the money to do a full Wookie battle if he so wanted he choose the Ewoks. I am guessing for the reasons atgxtg stated though I am not sure. All I can recall on it was George saying it was suppose to be the Wookies in the movie and as things came together there was an idea thrown out. Hey why not make them half the size and call them Ewoks.
who you calling scruffy looking |
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Draven
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:07 am Post subject: |
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Got to play Devil's advocate here.
Just saw another bit I missed. George Lucas did a good job picking a choosing the the parts of his story for the OT and not such a good job with PT. The movies as they are now are his story he did not pick parts. There is no books that have been put out by George Lucas. He writes movies so the the movies are his story they are not parts of the story but they are the story. |
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