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Inviktus
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Joined: 24 Aug 2012
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 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | | So, all in all, those Jedis can't really use any force powers... Moderate roll with 2D is nearly impossible (you need to spend some CP) and they can't benefit from LSC thanks to the -1 MAP, or am I missing something? (even Very Easy checks with just 1D are kinda hard) |
As for the -1d MAP, that would be wash with the current 1d sense. They would still get an extra 1d to damage and the ability to block blasters, in terms of practical benefit.
Also, since it seems like I'll need to bring this up, I also grant every character a certain amount of "luck" dice per adventure. Basically they work just like CP for rolls, but have no relation to advancement.
When they really wanted something to work in the prior games, they added a luck die or two to the roll. So far they've seemed satisfied with the results. |
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Quetzacotl
Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ah ok, that would make mors sense...
As I said, moderate with only 2D is rather impossible without a lot of luck. But with 1 or 2 more dice, this sounds fine.
@crmcneill
What exactly do you mean? Does the Ds in "Force Sensitive" add to Control, Sense and Alter? Or how does it work?
Because, if I don't confuse something, you already have to activate the 3 Skills with an Attribute Die each, right? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Basically, the starting dice normally split between Control, Sense and Alter are combined into a single attribute. Control, Sense and Alter are now considered skills under that attribute. I use this method because both the EU and the prequels indicate that degree of Force Sensitivity varies from being to being, rather than a static yes/no.
I'm also playing around with including the D6 Space advantage / disadvantage system to flesh out and / or increase starting attributes and skills.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Inviktus
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Joined: 24 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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I originally introduced the luck dice as an anti-wookie factor adjustment since some players were using non-standard races like Togruta.
A human gets 10d luck minus their highest full skill die code. If for example, you start with a 6d skill then you get 4 luck dice.
It helps even out the weaker templates so they don't suffer so much CP drain to just stay alive for a few sessions, all the while falling farther behind.
Also, if your race has extra attribute dice or nice special abilities, you get fewer dice. However, in the case of Jawas they actually get a base of 11d.
I have one player using a Verpine, his base luck is 6d, so since his highest skill is 5d he's only playing with 1 luck die. |
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Inviktus
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | Basically, the starting dice normally split between Control, Sense and Alter are combined into a single attribute. Control, Sense and Alter are now considered skills under that attribute. I use this method because both the EU and the prequels indicate that degree of Force Sensitivity varies from being to being, rather than a static yes/no.
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An interesting solution to the starting character point cost disparity.
Mechanically the post-start costs are identical to the standard rules while neither over or under charging for starting with force ability.
It also adds an easy method to vary races with force affinity.
I would certainly use this version if I wasn't so aggressively trying to diminish MAP accounting. |
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Quetzacotl
Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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@Inviktus
Well, you could simply use that solution together with you own.
At the Start, you can put Attribute Dice in "Force Sensitive".
Now Control / Alter / Sense become Skills and the powers become Spezialisations. Although you could just say that Control / Alter / Sense cost some more.
This way each power still only accounts as one Skill and thus only gets you 1 MAP (or rather counts as a single action).
btw. are these "luck dice" single use only, meaning that you only get them at the start and if you used all of them, they vanished? Or do they get replenished every now and then?
@crmcneill
So, if i created a character with 2D in Force Sensitivity, would that Char also get more FP then 2? |
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vanir
Jedi
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Under Pale Gray Skies wrote: |
1 power per D? Is that by the book? |
You can learn 1 power per pip maximum, but the 2R&E starting templates feature Force users starting with 1 power per die.
I assume the reason is that you need at least one power to have a dice in a Force skill, otherwise how would you know you had a Force skill?
I think it's just a minimum starting point at character creation, then the PC can learn up to 1 power per pip from there.
At least that's the way we've been playing it, reconciles both NPC stats with lots of powers and few dice, plus those 2R&E starting templates without contradiction.
Earlier 2nd Ed templates didn't list Force powers at all, even if you had Force skills, it was just left to Player selection during character creation but since the only RAW mentioned at the time was 1 per pip, it meant a Young Jedi could start the game with 9 powers. Under R&E they can start the game with 3 powers but can learn up to 6 more if instructed, and successful in the learning process (Jedi Lore rolls, cadence rolls, etc., whilst under instruction), without necessarily increasing Force skills.
eg. My Young Jedi has Control 1D, Sense 1D, Alter 1D and I have lightsabre combat and telekinesis as starting powers. I encounter a Failed Jedi with other powers and he is willing to instruct me in Accelerate Healing immediately, midway through an adventure as we travel to our destination in hyperspace. We have not received CP at this stage and I am not increasing my Control skill dice yet, but I do the cadence with him and exercise blind attempts to activate this unknown power, and roll attempts and higher difficulty, plus roll say a Jedi Lore to understand the concepts being explained, and manage to successfully recover from a stunning attack. I now have this power. And later at the close of the adventure I may also put 1pip in Control with my CP award for the instruction in this skill during the adventure.
That's how we play it anyway.
Also, people are mentioning a lot about "powers are useless when you don't have the skill to raise them yet, like Lightsabre Combat with only 2D in Control and Sense."
You can use an optional "Take Five" house rule to lower difficulties. If you take extra time to use a skill, you can lower the difficulty by one level, this is meant for things like say, Computer Programming/Repair, where the task would normally take 1 minute of programming time to attempt at Moderate difficulty, the PC can instead elect to take 5 minutes and lower the difficulty to Easy, if unsuccessful he can take 10 minutes for another attempt at Easy.
Since this is designed for PCs at lower skills to accomplish adventure tasks, why not adapt this to Force skills?
A PC Jedi might elect to attempt activating Lightsabre Combat over two 5-sec combat rounds to negate the MAP, this part a lot of players already use at lower skills as a house rule.
So why not allow a Jedi to spend 5 rounds, 25 secs of game time to activate lightsabre combat at a lower difficulty level?
It just means he needs to be in a position where he can prepare for a lightsabre duel for several rounds before the fighting starts. But this is the sort of thing Luke was doing at Bespin fighting Vader. They parlayed first, there was plenty of time casually approaching each other, lighting up weapons, making remarks to each other, even the long moments of entering the combat area and realising that lightsabres and not blasters would be used, gives time to spend several rounds activating lightsabre combat.
If a PC and GM can RP it well, I think you can give yourself time to activate lightsabre combat without it always having to be a last moment thing just as the blades clash. There's plenty of warning that's going to happen well before it does most times. |
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Inviktus
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Joined: 24 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | | btw. are these "luck dice" single use only, meaning that you only get them at the start and if you used all of them, they vanished? Or do they get replenished every now and then? |
They refresh whenever I award experience CP. They're not meant to truly disappear until the character are established enough to have high(ish) skills.
Last edited by Inviktus on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'm curious as to why you feel the need to eliminate MAPs. They can be an irritant, but they also provide a useful degree of balance by degrading the performance of powerful characters, heroes and villains both, at critical moments.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Inviktus
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I'm curious as to why you feel the need to eliminate MAPs. They can be an irritant, but they also provide a useful degree of balance by degrading the performance of powerful characters, heroes and villains both, at critical moments. |
The mechanic is sufficiently complex to bog down the game when used to any large degree. Mainly a function of who's playing and how much interest they have in rules. However, when you have 6 out of 8 players refuse to even crack a book, you need shortcuts. |
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Have to agree with crmcniell on that, if the reasoning to eliminate MAP on Force skills is to allow use of powers at lower dice/CP levels then why not use adapted RAW and simpler House rules (like the suggestion of allowing "take Five" for Force skills to lower activation difficulties)?
Because at higher dice, even moderate dice of 5-7D, without MAP any Force user is overwhelming. With a system specific to making it easier but take longer for lower skilled users, then higher powered Jedi aren't given extra overpowering, they just do things a bit quicker and with less preparation. But they still trade with MAPs and higher difficulties to do it, levelling the field a little dice wise to look awesome. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Inviktus wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | I'm curious as to why you feel the need to eliminate MAPs. They can be an irritant, but they also provide a useful degree of balance by degrading the performance of powerful characters, heroes and villains both, at critical moments. |
The mechanic is sufficiently complex to bog down the game when used to any large degree. Mainly a function of who's playing and how much interest they have in rules. However, when you have 6 out of 8 players refuse to even crack a book, you need shortcuts. |
Or better players. We just had this discussion recently; you can hand out CP for the player learning something. Award extra CP to the players who take an interest and the others will either start learning the system to get in on the bonus action, or they will quit, which makes the group size more manageable and increases the average competency of players in your group.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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vanir
Jedi
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Also get in the habit of firmly roleplaying every action a PC or NPC takes. Don't let Players get in the habit of saying, "Okay I activate my Lightsabre Combat, I'll make a dice roll..."
Stop them. Tell him to back up a second and walk him through it RPG style. "So are you saying you approach the Dark Jedi preparing your Force skills for a lightsabre duel? He looks at you intently and says, 'I knew your father,' make an easy willpower roll not to be distracted."
Get them away from GMing game mechanics as players and into the habit of describing their PC actions with RP and not stating player actions in game mechanics as a substitute of RP. Burn them when they do this, fudge rules if you have to.
Technically players don't need to crack a rule book, that's the GM's job.
They do start getting into the rules when they want to broaden RP outcomes for their PC, but an RPG can function just fine as a player/GM dictatorship until the players catch on. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Under Pale Gray Skies wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | In games where i allow someone to play a force user, they make them as is.
Each starting D they place into their force attributes (c/s/a) gives them 1 starting power.. |
1 power per D? Is that by the book? |
I base that on the existing templates from the 2e R&E book.
Young Jedi.. 1D starting in each of the 3 force skills.. Gets 3 force powers.
Rwevian force adept (alien tya follower).. Same.
Quixotic jedi, 1d sense..1 starting power
Minor jedi. 1d control.. 1 starting power and the failed jedi 1d control and 1d sense.. 2 starting powers.
| Quote: | You can learn 1 power per pip maximum, but the 2R&E starting templates feature Force users starting with 1 power per die.
I assume the reason is that you need at least one power to have a dice in a Force skill, otherwise how would you know you had a Force skill?
I think it's just a minimum starting point at character creation, then the PC can learn up to 1 power per pip from there. |
Yup.. as shown above starting templates get 1 power per D starting out.. LEARNING (which to me is in game) gives you 1 power per pip if training under a master.
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