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Methedor
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 110
Location: Zeltros
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 Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:12 am Post subject: Lightning, TK Kill, Force and Scale |
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Something that has seemed a bit off for me for a while. I pinned it down to Powers like TK Kill and Force Lightning against Starfighters, walkers, etc.
The powers bypass armor, Force Lightning at least explicitly says this. Now what does that mean when used against, say an X-wing or AT-AT? In the case of Telekinetic Kill it could be mangling random internal equipment (something that could probably be done with normal TK) or for Lightning piercing the armor would that bypass the scale rules? Would the fighter\object even get a resist (I'd think the player could roll for the items resist).
Has anyone dealt with this before? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:29 am Post subject: |
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I know in one of the trailers for Star Wars: The Old Republic, Vindican used Force Lightning against the Redshifter (an XS Light Freighter) to no visible effect, but the video games operate by different rules than we do. It's electrical (or at least appears that way), so maybe an ion cannon effect? Ion cannon ignore shields, after all...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Methedor
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 110
Location: Zeltros
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Interesting idea, with damage being half it'd only be useful against weak items or ships, like TIEs. Who would expect Force IONs! lol But, seriously if we do continue with the thought of IONs, then maybe against ships the die code should be full if the starfighter gets its scaled hull.
hm, I seem to remember Krayt's sith in Legacy using Lightning on a starfighter. I'll need to check, I know they used it like candy. But you are right the video games shouldn't be used as a Hard Reference (Thankfully my players haven't tried Forced Unleashed stuff on me. Well except using TK to tug on ships.)
TK Kill is another issue, one more dubious then lightning as it's more physical in nature and, well, bypassing. On one hand if it bypasses scale then it could get unbalanced, but logically it should bypass something as, again, it moves beyond the hull. Maybe a repair roll should be made to target the interior components correctly and that can determine extra damage against the fighter. Maybe an extra "D" per difficulty level. Of course this can be sidestepped by just choking the pilot, but that would nullify the conversation 
For some reason I miss Dark Forces II now... |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Methedor wrote: | Interesting idea, with damage being half it'd only be useful against weak items or ships, like TIEs. Who would expect Force IONs! lol But, seriously if we do continue with the thought of IONs, then maybe against ships the die code should be full if the starfighter gets its scaled hull.
hm, I seem to remember Krayt's sith in Legacy using Lightning on a starfighter. I'll need to check, I know they used it like candy. But you are right the video games shouldn't be used as a Hard Reference (Thankfully my players haven't tried Forced Unleashed stuff on me. Well except using TK to tug on ships.) |
Force Lightning has received a lot of coverage on the Forum over the years. The biggest problem is that there is no real consensus within the EU as to what it really does, so there have been multiple suggestions as to how to change it to make it more formidable. The one idea that I liked is that, based on its use in the films, Force Lightning's initial attacks appear to start with relatively low, disabling damage, then ramp up to greater damage the more rounds it is applied. Another good idea was to fold Bolt of Hatred into Force Lightning, allowing every attack to drain a CP (which could tie into the energy draining effect of a possible ion cannon application).
IMO, as far as the RAW is concerned, Force Lightning's only real advantage is that it only requires two rolls to bring up (Control/Alter), as opposed to TK Kill (Control/Sense/Alter). Maybe some area-effect rules would make it more interesting, so that Force Lightning can effect multiple targets at once...
| Quote: | TK Kill is another issue, one more dubious then lightning as it's more physical in nature and, well, bypassing. On one hand if it bypasses scale then it could get unbalanced, but logically it should bypass something as, again, it moves beyond the hull. Maybe a repair roll should be made to target the interior components correctly and that can determine extra damage against the fighter. Maybe an extra "D" per difficulty level. Of course this can be sidestepped by just choking the pilot, but that would nullify the conversation
For some reason I miss Dark Forces II now... |
LOL, yeah, I know what you mean.
I've studied TK Kill in detail, and I don't think it should bypass scale. TK Kill is more about precision than brute strength. When used on character scale targets, the character uses the Force to read his target's anatomical structure for weak points (the Sense roll), then uses his Telekinetic ability to manipulate them in such a way that it causes physical harm, and with such precision that the rest of the target's body is unaffected. I think using TK Kill on a object larger in scale would be more difficult because, with the precision TK Kill requires, locating a precise spot to concentrate to inflict damage becomes more difficult.
I don't think a Repair roll is necessary, though. Any time a Sense roll is used, the character is receiving guidance from the Force in some fashion. He doesn't need to know the inner workings of a ship; the Force helps him identify a crucial component and gives him intuitive knowledge as to how to manipulate it for damaging effect.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Shouldnt the Telekinesis power be used on inanimate objects?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Oddly enough, there is no rule expressly forbidding the use of TK Kill on droids. With that in mind, the power bears some definite similarities to the unnamed power that Master Arca used against the Krath War Droids in the TOTJ comics. In both cases, the Jedi is perceiving the interior of the target's body and manipulating it in such a way as to cause harm.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Shouldnt the Telekinesis power be used on inanimate objects? |
I can definitely see TK being able to inflict normal, physical damage, but IMO, it has limitations that TK Kill does not. Because it is Alter only, it should only be able to be used on targets that are within the character's line of sight (seeing someone through a view screen or holo doesn't count).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Shouldnt the Telekinesis power be used on inanimate objects? |
Such as a chair, computer, or blast door? I can't imagine TKK being used on a door, as you're not killing anything. Would would be the advantage of trying to use TKK over TK?
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Methedor
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 110
Location: Zeltros
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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"Droids"
I agree which is why I was thinking it could be used against things like ships, Blasters... Lightsabers, etc. Though if that was Master Arka's use of the Force it brings the absoluteness of Darkside points into question as he only has a few DSP. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Methedor wrote: | "Droids"
I agree which is why I was thinking it could be used against things like ships, Blasters... Lightsabers, etc. Though if that was Master Arka's use of the Force it brings the absoluteness of Darkside points into question as he only has a few DSP. |
Actually, we've had explosive arguments here on the Forum regarding the Dark Side nature of using TK Kill, as seen here, among other places.
The basic argument is that, if Luke is seen to use Force Choke on the Gamorrean guards at Jabba's palace, shouldn't it be possible for a Jedi to use this power to inflict something less than lethal damage and not receive a DSP? I'm not going to rehash the point here, as it has been covered in laborious detail in the topic linked above, but I still stand by my argument in favor of it.
The droid question then becomes an extension of the original question. If I am OK with Jedi using a restricted form of TK Kill to inflict Stun damage only, should I also be OK with Jedi using TK Kill to damage or destroy what is, in essence, an animated object (a droid)? Considering the circumstances (Jedi conclave raided by heavily armed war droids that are trying to kill all Jedi present), I certainly wouldn't have an issue with it (subject to the restrictions I mention in the other topic).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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For me those powers (Tk kill, force choke, force lightning) are sentient use on only powers.. not on inanimate objects.. which is how i get past the scale issues.
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vanir
Jedi
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:10 am Post subject: |
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There's a specific dark side/sith power for manipulating or damaging electronics (including droids). I think it's in the TotJ sourcebook. TKK/FL only works on living creatures. Hence they bypass any scale for vehicles or armour, they attack the living being directly through the Force. For TKK the sense roll vs perception is used to contact the target mind. For FL you need line of sight so you could arguably rule that there must be no obstacle between the target and attacker but any armour is ignored and you might include big exoskeletons like an AT-PT or certain speeder scale powersuits, but maybe not an AT-ST since they're in a vehicle and are obscured from sight with space to jump around in, dive for the deck when you try to blast them, things like that. Armour or an exoskeleton is a bit different being wrapped around the target's body.
Similarly it's a GM call if a target is in a fighter cockpit. He can't exactly move around much and you might FL him right through the transparisteel canopy, but for a scout/transport you might say they can duck and dive from view so easily you can't really call it line of sight. In any case if you allowed a FL through a cockpit glass, it would ignore any hull rating/armour but can only target a living creature.
There are speeder scale creatures. You might rule the damage received is the same scale as the target creature itself, being an embodiment of the Force which binds their life, so damage is the scale of the target creature. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | | There's a specific dark side/sith power for manipulating or damaging electronics (including droids). I think it's in the TotJ sourcebook. |
Its original source is the Jedi Academy sourcebook, and the main reason it is a Dark Side power is solely that the only character in the Jedi Academy series to actually use the power was Kyp Durron. I've never believed that a power should automatically be evil simply because of who it is associated with.
| Quote: | | TKK/FL only works on living creatures. |
There is film evidence that says otherwise. In AOTC, during the Dooku/Yoda confrontation, when they are playing Force Lightning ping-pong, one of the rebounded lighting bolts strikes a wall and explodes in a burst of flame. There are many conflicting reports in the canon as to what FL does and does not affect, but if the films show FL having an explosive effect when used on non-living solid objects, then the films trump everything else, and I would be willing to treat FL more like actual lightning than a living-beings only effect.
| Quote: | | Hence they bypass any scale for vehicles or armour, they attack the living being directly through the Force. For TKK the sense roll vs perception is used to contact the target mind. For FL you need line of sight so you could arguably rule that there must be no obstacle between the target and attacker but any armour is ignored and you might include big exoskeletons like an AT-PT or certain speeder scale powersuits, but maybe not an AT-ST since they're in a vehicle and are obscured from sight with space to jump around in, dive for the deck when you try to blast them, things like that. Armour or an exoskeleton is a bit different being wrapped around the target's body. |
Perhaps flip-flopping the damage would work, so that TK Kill only inflicts 1/2 Alter for damage, but can be effective at much greater ranges than the line-of-sight FL or TK. Meanwhile, FL can be bumped up to full Alter damage and become a very, very potent weapon in a dark sider's arsenal. The very precise nature of TK Kill (focusing on a single portion of the target's anatomy for lethal effect) actually ties in well with lower overall damage...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Shouldnt the Telekinesis power be used on inanimate objects? |
Such as a chair, computer, or blast door? I can't imagine TKK being used on a door, as you're not killing anything. Would would be the advantage of trying to use TKK over TK? |
I dont follow?
I would assume that one would use TK when affecting non-living things (including droids). Perhaps one would have to use two TK actions (Squeezing something together with a 1 ton pressure from each side for example).
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | Such as a chair, computer, or blast door? I can't imagine TKK being used on a door, as you're not killing anything. Would would be the advantage of trying to use TKK over TK? |
I dont follow?
I would assume that one would use TK when affecting non-living things (including droids). Perhaps one would have to use two TK actions (Squeezing something together with a 1 ton pressure from each side for example). |
There are some interesting similarities, though. If you wanted to smash a chair, a computer or door to pieces, or crush it into a little ball, I could see TK being the proper power (or at least some derivative thereof). But what if you simply wanted to destroy the internal workings of a door lock while leaving the rest of the door unharmed? What if you wanted to crush a computer's hard drive while leaving the exterior of the computer untouched? Practically speaking, TK Kill seems a better fit for precise, yet effective damage...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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