DSP for teacher-student relationship

[garhkal]

OK in all three editions (1e, 2e, 2e R&E) a student who has a DSP passes it on to a teacher, who is teaching the ways of the force.
BUT why is it that the reverse is also not true? Why does not a student gain one from studying under a teacher with a DSP?

Who here DOES do that?
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Bren]

No. I don’t do that.

Here’s why I think the designers didn’t include that rule.

(1) Game balance: (i) A master is in a position of power to choose to teach or not teach any given student. The student typically does not have a choice of masters to select from. In addition, the master may be able to detect (via Sense Force or Sense Path) that a student has a DSP. So the master has a way of avoiding a DSP by teaching the wrong person. A student is much less likely to have that power or to be able to use it successfully against his master. So from a game balance perspective it is more fair to put this duty on the master rather than the student since often a student could be caught or tricked by a Dark Sider into accepting training leading to the player too easily losing his or her character. (ii) Players are more likely to be students than masters (at least in the Civil War era of the original WEG rules) so this limits training for students who have gained a DSP. Their master will refuse to teach them until they have atoned. This slows Force skill acquisition for those that succumb to the Dark Side - since they have to take time to attone - which is in keeping with the slow growth rate for new Jedi that seems implied in places in the WEG rules.

(2) Morality: The master has a greater duty and responsibility - to the student and to the Force - than does the student. So it is fair to put this burden on the master rather than the student. Also since the student often has no way to determine if their master has a DSP - especially if the master chose to resist any detection - the student would be assigned moral blame for an unknowing act.

(3) EU Precedent: A number of characters have been taught by masters who have DSPs. A classic example would be Mara Jade. Since her training was done by the Emperor she would have accumulated 1 DSP for every skill increase or power he taught her and would have turned to the Dark Side long before Heir to the Empire.

(4) The GM is not your Enemy: The GM should not be trying to beat, trick, or crock the players or their PCs. Nor should the GM be running a railroad. Adding a rule like this seems like a cruel GM trick and a cheap railroad to the Dark Side. As a GM, I would not want to do this to a player and as a player I would be uncomfortable with a GM that intentionally sets up a character for failure. I don’t see any benefit to encouraging that sort of dynamic nor in adding this to the rules. Frankly I also don’t see the problem or abuse that this rule is supposed to address. Moreover I think this eliminates some interesting opportunities for drama and roleplaying (see below).

Personally, I don't like this rule since it penalizes the character for actions that the character has no certain way of knowing are wrong. It also removes interesting drama of having the young Jedi template character learn from a struggling Failed Jedi – who, according to the RAW, starts with a DSP. And in fact both templates mention a teacher student relationship under “connections to other characters” so it seems very clear that the designers intended the Failed Jedi to be a teacher to the Young Jedi without subjecting the Young Jedi to an inexorable slide down the Dark Side.

I would rather make the cost of training (with) someone with a DSP less cut and dried, but more insidious, e.g.

1. The DSP teacher could teach DSP powers to the student so that the student can "know their enemy" but this new power may now tempt the unwary student to use the power.
   
2. The DSP student may be rash his actions always in a hurry and pushing to learn and try new powers or even to discover or invent (dangerous) powers on their own. During the Empire period, the rash student may draw the notice of Jedi hunters to both student and master. And in any period the master will now need to try to undo any harm from his student's rash actions as well as trying to persuade his student back to the path of the Light.

I’ll also note in passing that this topic has come up before – [ulr= http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3316&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15]here[/url].

[TheEvilDM]

[lurker]

What about a master passing off at least some of the taint through their teaching ????

That said all of Bren's point are good reason not to swamp the character with DSP. However like he says DSP in training (both student and/or teacher) should be insidious. A DP may be to harsh, but what about a pip every once in a while?
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

[atgxtg]

[lurker]

[schnarre]

[atgxtg]

[garhkal]

[atgxtg]

[CRMcNeill]

[atgxtg]

I agree.

What I am thinking of is:
1) Raise the number of DSP needed to turn completely to the dark side.

2) Let DSP accumulate, but only roll when the Jedi actually actively does evil. So if they use the dark side or a dark side power for a good purpose they get the DSP but they don't risk turning. They do however, start racking up DSPs which will come back to haunt them later on.

3) When they do do eveil and make a roll (and Willpower might be good here), and fail, they act out. Basically they do whatever selfish thing will get them what they want, and are not in complete control of their actions. Later on they will calm down and recover, but by them they might have (mostly likely will have) done more evil and rack up more DSP.

4) Eventually if they don;t do something about the DSP they will turn completely and lose thier character. Very much a Jekyll & Hyde thing.

[garhkal]

And how high are you going to raise the DSP total to before someone turns?
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[CRMcNeill]

[atgxtg]