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lurker
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Joined: 24 Oct 2012
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Location: Oklahoma
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 Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: Controlling “dark” powers & intuitive learning |
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Good morning
I’ve been reading some of the old posts (some great discussions/debates in them) and from the ones on Jedi powers, dark side (& ds points) and controlling the powers I had an ideas that I’d like advice on
First, from the posts about Luke’s Force Choke on two Gamorreans – I’m taking this from my combatives training. In combative, MMA etc, it is relatively easy to get a hold on someone’s neck that could crush their wind pipe (a strait arm across the neck, hands on the neck, or even a punch to the neck). However, it is more difficult, but safer on the opponent, to get a sleeper hold that cuts off the blood to the brain, makes them pass out, but does not permanently harm them like the wind pipe. Could this be applied to the use of similar Jedi skills? A dark Jedi simply crushing the wind pipe, a good Jedi doing the more difficult “sleeper hold” use of the skill?
If so, what are the game mechanic differences? From the other posts, I like the idea of using a willpower check, but I don’t know the game good enough to have other ideas.
Now for intuitive learning, I know you are supposed to have a Jedi master teach you all the skills. However, in real life if you know A and B and are cleaver you can put them together to make C . Real life example, in my class I was working with my cadets on history and the way types of government change (Plato’s ides and how they are shown through history, and how often the changes are bloody, and if they are for the worse they are ALWAYS bloody). Then one of the cadets has the idea that we could be traveling the same path, and that it is dangerous for him to have paid no attention to politics over the last few years. If my cadets, who tend to be on the low academic level, can make a cognitive leap like that shouldn’t Jedi be able to and from those leaps learn some skills?
For this, looking back up at Luke’s force choke, if he has medic or combative training, he’d know the process that if you cut off blood to the brain a person passes out in 20ish seconds. Then if he knows the alter skills needed to manipulate things (I assume TK, but I don’t have the books to verify). Couldn’t he put 2 & 2 together, practice a little, and then have the skill? Admittedly, this would be slower and the end product would be less refined than having a master teach it, but it is better than not having a skill.
That said, what would the game mechanic be for that kind of learning – if you allowed it?
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors. |
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cheshire
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Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Luke and the Gamoreans? Err... I'll let someone else chime in on that one. If you look through the old posts there are quite a few opinions and attitudes concerning how we ought to regard that. It's a discussion I'm not likely to dabble in again in the near future, but you've probably seen my posts on the subject elsewhere.
However, intuitive learning is something I've seen in some games. There are sometimes I will allow for intuitive learning, though it isn't often. The main reason for it is game balance. The reason why we don't give Jedi access to a whole slew of powers all at once is because they already have more than enough opportunity to dominate the game. If you set boundaries as to how they pace themselves, then things can progress more easily for the group as a whole.
Now, if there is a good story-driven reason why a Jedi could or should make that leap on his/her own, then that's great. Often I've seen GMs do this as a form of temptation. Just like you said, they know TK, so why not move that up to TK Kill? It serves for a great moment to build dramatic tension and give a Jedi a real trial. If they could easily accomplish their objective by choking this one person to death and also rid the galaxy of a very evil person, or face being disarmed and imprisoned, then it makes for a great moral choice on the part of the player.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Controlling “dark” powers & intuitive learning |
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| lurker wrote: | Could this be applied to the use of similar Jedi skills? A dark Jedi simply crushing the wind pipe, a good Jedi doing the more difficult “sleeper hold” use of the skill?
If so, what are the game mechanic differences? From the other posts, I like the idea of using a willpower check, but I don’t know the game good enough to have other ideas. |
The Willpower roll was my idea, and that was the only real shift in the game mechanic. In essence, the RAW for TK Kill says that it only inflicts normal damage, but by adding in the Willpower roll, the Jedi can "pull his punch", both telekinetically and emotionally, and inflict stun damage only without receiving a DSP. However, it doesn't make the Jedi immune to DSPs, as his emotional state is still subject to his Willpower skill roll (as well as Wild Dice). If he fails the roll, he gets a DSP.
This method could be applied to other Dark Side skills, but I would pick which ones on a case by case basis, as there are some powers that are thoroughly evil.
| Quote: | | Now for intuitive learning, I know you are supposed to have a Jedi master teach you all the skills. However, in real life if you know A and B and are cleaver you can put them together to make C. |
I've been playing with an intuitive learning idea based on CPs. It basically allows the character to level up in mid-game. Whenever a character spends a CP in game (as opposed to saving them for upgrading skills), if they roll a 6, their character makes an intuitive leap, and is allowed to increase the skill that they spent the CP on by 1 pip (at normal CP cost). If the character is a Jedi using a Force skill, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to exchange increasing a skill to intuitive knowledge of a new Force power. However, IMO, learning from an instructor will always be the most efficient way to improve in the Force (as you are flying blind otherwise), so any CP cost for intuitive improvement would need to reflect that.
| Quote: | | For this, looking back up at Luke’s force choke, if he has medic or combative training, he’d know the process that if you cut off blood to the brain a person passes out in 20ish seconds. Then if he knows the alter skills needed to manipulate things (I assume TK, but I don’t have the books to verify). Couldn’t he put 2 & 2 together, practice a little, and then have the skill? Admittedly, this would be slower and the end product would be less refined than having a master teach it, but it is better than not having a skill. |
With regards to the Willpower-on-TK Kill roll, I considered this, but ultimately discarded it. In the first film, Obi-wan makes the statement that the Force partially controls one's actions, but that it also obeys one's commands. From that, I went with the idea that the appropriate information (insofar as how much pressure to put into a Force Choke if you wanted to subdue instead of injure) would be provided by the Force (as a result of the Sense roll to bring up TK Kill in the first place).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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On the Intuitive learning, sparks has an interesting mechanic.. Spend a FP on a power you want to learn and have seen (or been victim to) but have yet to find anyone to teach it. And iirc add 15 to the diff to activate it. If successful, you can successfully pull the power off. Does nothing for learning it there and then but you can iirc later learn it for the standard 5cp cost.
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lurker
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Joined: 24 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Luke and the Gamoreans? Err... I'll let someone else chime in on that one. If you look through the old posts there are quite a few opinions and attitudes concerning how we ought to regard that. It's a discussion I'm not likely to dabble in again in the near future, but you've probably seen my posts on the subject elsewhere
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Cheshire, Rgr on that, and believe me I wasn’t trying to stir up an old argument or debate. The only reason I brought it up is that it was the first step in my intuitive learning question (well part of it was)
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However, intuitive learning is something I've seen in some games. There are sometimes I will allow for intuitive learning, though it isn't often. The main reason for it is game balance. The reason why we don't give Jedi access to a whole slew of powers all at once is because they already have more than enough opportunity to dominate the game. If you set boundaries as to how they pace themselves, then things can progress more easily for the group as a whole.
Now, if there is a good story-driven reason why a Jedi could or should make that leap on his/her own, then that's great
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Also, rgr on that. I guess I should have made sure I meant that it was for limited times and not a normal occurrence (also I’d say it would be for the basic skills). Plus there would have to be a very good game /story reason for it. Not just because the player wants another cool skill.
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Often I've seen GMs do this as a form of temptation. Just like you said, they know TK, so why not move that up to TK Kill? It serves for a great moment to build dramatic tension and give a Jedi a real trial. If they could easily accomplish their objective by choking this one person to death and also rid the galaxy of a very evil person, or face being disarmed and imprisoned, then it makes for a great moral choice on the part of the player.
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Ohhhh, I like that … I hadn’t thought about it being a good temptation device too. However, it does work as a good DM tool for the seductive draw of the dark side
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This method could be applied to other Dark Side skills, but I would pick which ones on a case by case basis, as there are some powers that are thoroughly evil.
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Crmcneill .Rgr on that. It is one thing to use TK to put a choke hold on someone and onther to build up your anger into a lightning attack.
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If the character is a Jedi using a Force skill, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to exchange increasing a skill to intuitive knowledge of a new Force power. However, IMO, learning from an instructor will always be the most efficient way to improve in the Force (as you are flying blind otherwise), so any CP cost for intuitive improvement would need to reflect that.
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For that, I’m way too rusty at D6, what would a good CP cost be for it?
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However, IMO, learning from an instructor will always be the most efficient way to improve in the Force (as you are flying blind otherwise), so any CP cost for intuitive improvement would need to reflect that.
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Rgr on that. I wonder, would it be doable to have a negative associated with intuitive learning, and then having a teacher/master reteach or improve the skills he taught himself to remove the negative …
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In the first film, Obi-wan makes the statement that the Force partially controls one's actions, but that it also obeys one's commands. From that, I went with the idea that the appropriate information (insofar as how much pressure to put into a Force Choke if you wanted to subdue instead of injure) would be provided by the Force (as a result of the Sense roll to bring up TK Kill in the first place).
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Well, with that could you picture having some of the “dark skills” having a light side version ??? It goes without saying there would only be some of the more combat focused Jedi that would have them and there would be debates about using them, their temptation toward the dark side etc
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On the Intuitive learning, sparks has an interesting mechanic.. Spend a FP on a power you want to learn and have seen (or been victim to) but have yet to find anyone to teach it. And iirc add 15 to the diff to activate it. If successful, you can successfully pull the power off. Does nothing for learning it there and then but you can iirc later learn it for the standard 5cp cost.
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Gar
Thanks, again I’m too rusty to judge if that is too steep a cost. I do like the idea of using a FP to initiate the skill. Is 15 too harsh, if not shouldn’t there be a positive to them having completed the intuitive learning
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Forgive all spelling errors. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps calling it an intuitive learning of it was off. More of an "Unttrained use of the power".
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | | Ohhhh, I like that … I hadn’t thought about it being a good temptation device too. However, it does work as a good DM tool for the seductive draw of the dark side |
If you are looking for a game rule to reflect that (and you like the Willpower rule), just increase the Willpower difficulty by a level or two to reflect the added temptation.
| Quote: | | Crmcneill .Rgr on that. It is one thing to use TK to put a choke hold on someone and onther to build up your anger into a lightning attack. |
Depends on whether you think Electric Judgment is a canon power or not
| Quote: | | For that, I’m way too rusty at D6, what would a good CP cost be for it? |
I think garhkal suggested 5 CP for learning a Force Power intuitively. That's as good a starting number as any.
| Quote: | | Rgr on that. I wonder, would it be doable to have a negative associated with intuitive learning, and then having a teacher/master reteach or improve the skills he taught himself to remove the negative… |
Well, as I said below, the Force both guides actions and obeys commands, so if the power description doesn't have a negative component (Dark Side Point risk), then I would say no. If, on the other hand, the power has some risk of a DSP (such as TK using objects for attack), then I would agree there would be some commensurate risk involved. In that case, a Force user might pick up a DSP unknowingly, and part of the mentoring process for the Jedi's teacher would be atoning for the DSP that the Jedi picked up in the process.
| Quote: | | Well, with that could you picture having some of the “dark skills” having a light side version ??? It goes without saying there would only be some of the more combat focused Jedi that would have them and there would be debates about using them, their temptation toward the dark side etc |
I think of it more in terms of "grey" skills, in that some powers are light, some are dark, and a few are in the middle, depending on how they are used.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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