Troublesome Player

[MegaFehr]

Hi everyone

I'm surrently running a campaign that is going on 2 years now.
I have 3 players in my group, and the game is really, really fun... However:

One of the players is a constant source of frustration and irritation. Both to me and the other two players. It's gotten to the point where me and him outright argue over the game table and the other players tell me, after a session, that they have just about reached their limit with him.

Examples of his behavior:

- Everytime (and I do mean everytime) I make a decision as the GM, he furrows his brow and immediately questions that decision. Even minute details of the game.

- He interrupts me when I'm describing a scene or location and becomes angry when I tell him to wait or be quiet.

- He hoards BIG TIME. Every single piece of equipment he comes across his picks up! And again, he becomes angry if I rule that he is, simply, carrrying too much stuff.

- He argues that the skill I want him to roll, for a given task, isn't the "right one". He rolls his eyes at me and sighs and slumps back into his chair.

- He whines! and complains that it's unfair that the other two players have Jedi abilities and can heal themselves. He figures that his character should be able to use Willpower to ignore the -1D penalty of his wounded status. (Eventhough I told him that Control Pain doesn't remove the -1D from the Jedi characters).

- He metagames. His character constantly makes decisions either from knowledge HE, as the player, has or based on the fact that this is a game with stats ect. When I call him on this, he (once again) gets confused and angry.

- He feels that his background story should supersede his stats. To be more specific: His template type is a “Commando” with lots of combat skills and very few other talents. Hight strength and dex, high blaster skill and he always wears a heavy battle armor.
He put these stats together himself, complete with skill choices ect.
But this is NOT the type of character he wants to play. He wants to play a Han Solo, Lando type character with lost of suave and social skills.
So he CONSTANTLY b**** and moans about the fact that his character should have this skill and that skill or bonuses, simply because of what he wrote in his backstory.

Generally speaking he is the kind of player who wants to be good at EVERYTHING, which is a fair enough goal for a long term campaign. But he doesn’t want to work for it. He feels he is entitled to stuff simply because he is there.
He was a sergeant (after 9 month with the New Republic) and he had been put in charge of training a squad of commandoes. After 3 months of this, 2 of which he’d spent away from the facility or wounded to the point where he couldn’t participate in the training he DEMANDED that he be promoted to Lieutenant. And when both his superiors in game, and me (the GM) AND the other players had spent 45 min. trying to convince him that he didn’t have any skills or accomplishments that would warrant such a promotion, he got . . . you guessed it: angry!

I could go on for hours with examples of his childish behavior and stuff that ruins the fun for the rest of us, but I think you all got the point:
We just spend WAY to much time discussing things with him, which takes away from actual game time.

My problem is that I really like the dude, as a person, and I know that he is not behaving this way to be a jerk. He has EXTREMELY low self esteem and desperately doesn’t want his character to suffer any setbacks or failures. And I do have this in the back of my mind as I GM, but it has just about reached a point where he has to either change his behavior or leave the game.
So how do I tell this dude this, without him becoming angry or hurt?
Should I do it face to face or should we talk about it in the group?

Have any of you experienced anything like it?

[Raven Redstar]

I'm sorry that you're having to go through this, most gaming groups go through it at one point or another. Gamers are usually all looking for something different to take away from a game, so most handle themselves in different ways than they do normally in every day. I have gone through this, and it is hard. I'll see if I can offer any pointers or inevitabilities that you may end up having to face...

First off, you're dealing with a person, there isn't much you can do to make sure that he doesn't react badly to what you have to say. He may get his feelings hurt, or he may get upset, that's just fact. But, your game is suffering, and it is hard to have someone who plays that way. You are justified in having a conversation with him.

If it were me, I would speak to him alone first. Try to lead in with something positive, and then bring up a point you'd like to make. Do this for every complaint, if you have 20 things he's doing to frustrate you, try to think of 20 ways that he's helpful or nice or whatever. No one wants to hear one nice thing and 100 things that are wrong with you. Since you really like him as a person, let him know that. Just his demeanor at the game table does not mirror the good guy that you know he is. Be concise and be exact about when and how his behavior has made it difficult for you to have fun running your game. If he's a nice person, you could play the sympathy card, tell him that you just don't feel like he enjoys playing in your story, and it's making it harder and harder for you to want to put in the effort needed to keep it up. You could ask him to at least wait until you've finished describing the scene before he contributes something, that way the game doesn't get bogged down in debate and the story suffers. Instead of telling him that he can't carry that much gear, let him. Have him roll his lifting and stamina to see how long he can keep it up. With the willpower rolls for ignoring penalties, have the military issue him a couple of stims that will allow him to ignore his wounds, for a while. Just be sure he understands that continuing fighting or whatever on it may make the wound worse in the long run, do so in game, have a medical officer or scientist explain the possible side affects of the stims, this could be a fun time listing off the possible severe side affects. When dealing with players like this, it's often useful to use what I call the "garhkal method," let him roll his low social skills for his attempts to be suave and whatever, and let the dice fall where they may. Sometimes he may roll well and people accept what he says, sometimes he may not. If he gives a good speech, give his roll a +5, and if he complains about the fact that he still failed, tell him that people are a little creeped out by little mannerisms he's picked up in the service. Or maybe the fact that they can see in his eyes how many people he's killed. Use the dice roll difficulties, not logic to combat him. If it were me, I would always play it down like he almost got there, or whatever, just don't tell him the actual difficulty number he's looking for, bad move with metagamers.. You could offer to let him spend character points to improve his roll and let him succeed. This also opens up his character for development, if you want him to be able to start branching into social skills, he's gotta start using them. He can begin to improve them after games, and he'll be able to start working toward that well-rounded character that he wants.

Even with all the preparation in the world, there is a very good chance that he may get angry and try to take it out in game. Some players are that way. I would suggest having this conversation on an off day, that way if he does get upset, you hopefully won't have someone with an open wound sitting down at the table. As much as it's nice having your other players support you, you should be acting as the authority at the game, not them. He may be thinking that they're running the game, not you. I would ask my other players to try to not get involved, as they may be throwing fuel on the fire. If he continues his behavior, then discuss it as a group. It is very hard to keep gaming when your group is no longer there, and it's at this point when you tell him that if his behavior doesn't improve that you just won't be able to game with him any longer, it's putting too much of a strain on your friendship. At this point, the other players can express their frustrations, but just try to remind them to keep their comments and complaints constructive, and try to dial it back so as to not be hurtful.

Ok, now here comes the tough part. There's a chance that you may end up getting him so angry or hurt that he doesn't want to play with you any longer. Hell, he may not want to speak to you for a while. I don't want to paint a pretty picture and tell you everything will be alright if you handle everything perfectly, but this may not end up being the case. You're dealing with another human being and there is no difficulty number to hit to convince him to change his ways. I'm not trying to sound insulting, but sometimes people forget this. Sometimes it's an inevitability that friendships grow apart, it happens. It hurts, but I think trying to work this out will be better for your friendship than having the mounting frustration. Try to keep your cool. Don't get into shouting matches with him and don't get into a poop flinging fight. (Don't start hurling insults) If he reacts badly and starts yelling, I would suggest sitting quietly until he stops. Try to stay calm and rational, keep your voice steady and at a reasonable volume. It's better to approach this from the higher ground. Try to be friendly about it, joke that he's getting pretty worked up over a game which is supposed to be fun.


Anyway, I hope it works out for you. I'm sure other members of the forum will have their own input.
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RR
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[vanir]

First rule of gaming: no out of game arguments are tolerated about specific campaigns or games involving PCs. Want to argue? Do it in game, through the character.

eg. A player says, "No way should the difficulty be so high on that security roll!"
The GM responds, "Does your character shake his fist and say, 'No way this should be so hard to do!' (to the other players) How do you respond to this?"
(other players) "We stare at him oddly, dude."
(GM) "They stare at you oddly, dude."

Yes a problem player will be very frustrated by this approach at first, but he'll either get the idea or cause too much disruption for refusing to play and be asked to leave the group. Enforce this consistently and absolutely.

Players may only discuss the general gaming system. Discuss say, scaling in RAW and suggest House Rule ammendments, sure, more discussion the better, but as soon as it involves a specific game with PCs, you as GM must enforce that they are always speaking in character. Even outside a gaming session (we were buddies too), bring up a specific game in which you have a PC and you're talking in character. No out of game discussion is tolerated. Only general talk about the gaming system (which can lead to changes within a specific game, but done the right way).

2. Some players as human beings may have some personal issues they need to sort out and it is unfair on the gaming group to be overly disrupted for extended periods due to this. Offer to help him as a friend, but if he can't immerse and play the game for a common enjoyment, then he will be asked to leave the group.
You have to enforce that too. You could be helping him by doing this. People don't always do what they know they should and sometimes continue to do things they shouldn't to avoid doing what they should, in escapism. It's unfair to the group and him, he's doing suicide by proxy in this case. So help him by instructing him to leave.



Two simple rules. No out of game discussion about specific games either during or outside sessions, any discussion is *always* regarded absolutely as in-character by the GM and is subject to GM ruling. If you're out having a beer and a player says, "So in that last game, when that wookiee clobbered me I forgot I had a vibroblade on me but my character wouldn't have, I don't think I should lose an arm."
The GM responds, between ordering a beer, while you're at the pub, "So does your character talk to himself and say, damn I really shouldn't have forgotten I had a vibroblade on me?"

Enforce it. You're the GM and the other players will thank you.

And secondly, you may need to ask him to leave the group. Not because you can't take it, but because clearly that is what he wants to do, he just refuses to do it. Help your friend.

[atgxtg]

Yes. That sort of player pops up from time to time. Usually they aren"t quite as "intense" as your example.

You have a limited number of reponses.

The first thing you can do is just continue on as you have been. If you've been able to put up with it so far, you might prefer to put up with it to the alternatives.

Assuming that you are willing to face a little unplesantness to deal with the situation, the other thing you can do is to talk with the player. Pull him aside, you want to do this one on one, and try to explain the situation to him, and that as a player he has to accpet your rulings on things, that some decisions have been made, and he should accpet them and move on. Be nice, explain your view, and listen to his. He probably won"t say anything differernt or anything that will change your decsion at this late date, but you should let him have his say to show that you do listen to him. This talk might do some good, or it might tick him off, but it is one of those things a GM owes a player. If you are lucky, the player didn"t actually realize how much of a problem he has been, and this will turn out to be some sort of miscommunication.


If that doesn't work, then you will either have to learn to live with things the way they are, or kick the player out of the group. It's a drastic step, and almost certainly to cause hard feelings (anhd BTW, expect the remaining two players to no idea of what you are talking about when it comes to a head), but there is really no other way to deal with a player who refuses to accept the GM's judgment. But it is a drastic step. THat's why you need to have that talk first.


But before you take that last step, be sure just how bad the player's behavior is. All players will (and should) question the GM to some extent. Sometimes they sdon't understand something, sometimes the GM goofs up. Sometimes a player doesn't understand the way the rules work or the way the setting works. But if the guy is literally questioning EVERYTHING you do, then it's time for a talk.

[Guardian_A]

This is always a difficult issue to deal with.

Even considering the selfesteem issue, I'd pull him off to the side and have a private talk with him. (Before your next session.)

Talking Points:
-Tell him that you are the GM, and as such, your word is law. If you make a mistake, bring it up in private (After the game) instead of undermining you in front of everyone. The arguing at the table has to stop, PERIOD.
-Tell him that he needs to let you finish describing a scene, location, and-or situation before he starts asking for additional details about it.
-For the hoarding issue. Set down and calculate out a carry weight based on his strength/lifting rating. Let him carry whatever he wants up to that weight. For every X lbs over that weight, lower his movement speed by 1. (Maybe +4 on the Lifting chart per 1D, +1 per pip. Example: a character with 3D in Lifting would get +16 or 100kg/Moderate on the weight chart. A character with 4D+2 in Lifting would get +22 or 200kg/Difficult on the weight chart.) His own gear, including armor and weapons should be included in that weight. (If you know anything about D20, you can use that system as a guide.)
-Have a little talk with him about the difference between character and player knowledge. His character isnt him, and he isnt the character. He knows things that his character does not, and his character knows things that he does not (Which is why you have stats for a lot of things.)
-You should keep your stats in mind when writing a back story. If it cant reasonably be done with the stats you start with, then it probably shouldnt be in the backstory.
-When you turn him down for a promotion, let him know why and set some goals for him so he will qualify for the promotion.
-Let him know that there is a whole group of people playing, and as such, everyone needs a chance to shine during play. He's the "Combat guy" (Based on what you have described about his character.) Ask him to let everyone else be good at what they do and to focus on what he is good at. If he wants to get good at additional skills, he needs to buy them, because he is NOT entitled to them. The group needs to work together as a single unit, he cant do it all himself.
-Make sure that he understands the gravity of the situation. You like the guy, and you want him to be a part of the group, but if he continues to be a problem player, you might have to ask him to leave.

If the problem persists, have a talk with your other players to get their opinion on the situation. After all, a problem player affects everyone involved. They might have some useful insights that will help deal with the problem. If not, then at least you can explain the situation from your perspective and get them to back you up if you need to ask the problem player to leave.

Asking the player to leave should be a last resort, and all other options should be carefully considered before you go through with it. On the other hand, if the player continues to be a problem, you shouldnt shy away from the option either. Gaming is about everyone having fun, and anyone who brings that much anger to the table isnt having fun, and ensures that no one else has fun either. After all, you dont want him to run off your other players (From what you describe, your other players are getting close to that. Players that arent having fun LEAVE.)

That's the best advice that I can give. Hopefully someone around here will have some additional insights that might help.

[vanir]

Just a little more on how we handle gaming discussion.

Once the session starts, no out of game discussion, period. Leave it for after the session or before the session. Do it at the right time. Once we start rolling dice, everything you say is what your character says, not what you say and is treated like it, no matter what you say. Cry, get up and leave, but that's how it is.

Second, the rule about no specific game discussion involving your PC. Only general gaming system discussions, which can lead to changes in specific games, but in its proper place. No character arguments, any argument is always regarded as in-character statements by the PC and are handled under GM ruling, even outside of gaming sessions.

"Why do I have to roll a security roll instead of a computer programming roll here?"
"Does your character examine the consol?"

Like that. Enforce it consistently and absolutely.

[Bren]

[atgxtg]

[MattMartin23]

I agree with all of the advice. Talk to him out of character outside of game time, maybe over lunch or dinner and say, "Look you and I are buddies and I want us to be able to game together and be friends. But we can't game together with the others if you do follow the ground rules for gaming ettiquette. I know you want to be wicked cool and super powerful. We all do. But this takes time to develop a super awesome character. Besides it's better to rely on others that have a strength you don't have. This is what gaming's all about. There are no lone rangers in an RPG. If you can't play fair you can't play with us. We will still be homies but not in this setting if I cannot expect you to game in character and understand that your character is part of the entire story and includes others. You will get your shot at glory but even Han, Luke and Lando had to earn their way to glory. No one, not even Jedi Knight Luke just started with everything. Think of gaming as any story that you like or any good movie. Adversity and overcoming it makes heroes. If you want your character to become special, accept your limitations and develop his maturity and skills through both success and failure. Trust me, this is much more rewarding". See if a talk like that helps and let me know how this goes.

Best,
Matt

[garhkal]

[Guardian_A]

[Raven Redstar]

That's one method, the other method I posted a while ago:

[Fallon Kell]

How old is this player? The only cure may be to wait a few years...

Another possibility is that he's playing the wrong game. Munchkin sounds like more his speed.
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[thedemonapostle]

hoarding never was an issue for my group. we all grew up playing AD&D and used the old encumbrance rules. so when we went to WEG no one really tried to carry worlds on their backs. and for the various reasons of why carrying a ton of extra crud into a firefight can save your life but usually left you without anything of value. plus theres that whole thing of carrying all your worldly possessions in your pack rather than storing them securely meant you were a target for ALL kinds of thieves. ive had some visiting gamers do the explosives hoarding thing but going into a grenade fight carrying a lot of extra explosives is extremely risky.

had to look up how one went from sergeant to captain...wookieepedia is there to help...i guess. though im kinda curious to know why they went that way with the rank system, but thats a topic for someplace else...


metagaming :playing with above the board knowledge

in my experience some find this hard not to do. inexperienced players cant separate their knowledge from what their characters should know. when i conclude a player is doing this i state it out right and 9 times out of ten it takes a few more times and they get the point. that 1 time though where it doesnt work i am patient until it becomes game breaking and use it against them and let them know im doing exactly what theyre doing: the npc's have knowledge that they couldnt possibly know just as they players character does. as the gm i sometimes fudge things just to get the point across that for example a character with no starship skills of any kind has no clue as to the damage output of the IG-2000 or its speed ratings.

regarding the background of the created character: im pretty sure most here can tell you the skill ratings chart (its 0430 here and i think this is how it goes)
2D: below average human skill level
3D: average human skill level
4D: expert
5D: professional
6D: (cant recall)
7D: (cant recall)
8D: (cant recall)
9D: (cant recall)
10D: legendary fool

having had a great deal of interaction with special forces guys during my own military career i can honestly say that most dont have skills over 5D when they finish all their training. after a few years of doing whatever, they might have a few at 6D and if given more time some might have the equivalent of 7D or higher in their area of expertise. but a starting character isnt that level 1 dude with the cloth armor and wooden gun. they are people that have been around a bit and have experience. but they are not the super awesome legends of campfire tales. that takes some working.
and regarding the:
"moans about the fact that his character should have this skill and that skill or bonuses, simply because of what he wrote in his backstory."
the back story is to give the character some flesh to the bones on paper. just because someone did something once or twice in their life doesnt mean they know what theyre doing. having flown in a jet a few times and seen it done on tv doesnt qualify me to say that i know how to fly jets and planes of all types let alone get the stupid thing off the ground.
the high combat skills and all that is very single sided. gaming isnt all combat. what about stealth? what about space fun? survival? wheelin and dealin? everyone need the barabel in their group but even my old group's barabel(when i got to be a character instead of the gm) got tired of being the walking tank. he started to branch out, he ended up being out con/bargain/demolitions guy as well as the guy that pulled the pin on the grenade grabbed the bad guy and said by by, was pretty good with a blaster too.

sounds like the player's character needs to be punished in game for doing what he's doing. if he carries everything, then all the types of thieves should come out and give him a through greeting. wants to wear the biggest baddest armor into combat. have him get hit the most, as most people tend to shoot the biggest nastiest thing first anyway. if he wants to get promoted for doing nothing then implement a promotion points system. one already exists in the real world military (up to a point). base it upon his MOS (military occupational specialty) skills. something like x pips above y rating gives you z points and yes its harder to gain rank the higher you get. something like AA points equals rank 1, BB points equals rank 2, etc. now the real tough part would be deciding what skills qualify as being towards the promotion points. example as basic infantry they need to know how to shoot their primary and secondary (if any)weapons, hand to hand combat, basic survival, basic vehicle transport skills(repulsorlift ops), stamina, the basic idea behind pull pin throw grenade, with higher skill levels and more skills being required as they gain higher ranks. (yes i know its like putting in a level system, but it gives newbies something to work with)...might try and work up a rough draft of something like this sometime...unless someone else has already.


famous last words, "just because i dont know what it is doesnt mean i dont know how to use it."
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[garhkal]