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Gathur
Cadet
Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 8
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 Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:35 am Post subject: |
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This helped me a lot 
Thanks guys!! |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14172
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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No probs.. Glad to assist.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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IIRC, adventure journal 10(?) has an article about TIE fighters, and includes details on units. I'm on the road and can't research it at the moment, but I do remember that the article did specifically address the variable wing size issue.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 793
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:30 am Post subject: |
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The way we've worked it into our game is with rank and posting so that correct ranks for the size of the formation and to command its support personnel, as well as simply leading the craft into battle.
So that for a Rebel starfighter force:
(minimum ranks)
Droids have no rank
Normal groundcrew members are ranked "Crewman" (equivalent to Trooper)
Skilled groundcrew mechanics are ranked "Technician" (equivalent to Leading Trooper or First Trooper)
Groundcrew NCO is ranked "Deck Officer" (equivalent to Corporal)
Groundcrew commanders are an NCO and ranked "Crew Chief" (equivalent to Sergeant)
Starship gunnery and flight crew are an NCO and ranked "Weapons Officer" (equivalent to Master Sergeant or Warrant Officer)
Qualified starship pilots are a commissioned officer and ranked "Pilot Ensign" (equivalent to a Junior Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenant)
2 ship elements commanded by a "Lieutenant"
4 ship flights commanded by a "Senior Lieutenant" (equivalent to a Ground Forces Staff Lieutenant or Adjutant)
Squadrons are commanded by a "Commander"
Grouped squadrons with a common starfighter type are commanded by a "Captain-Lieutenant" (equivalent to a Ground Forces Captain)
A Starfighter Wing of mixed starfighter types is commanded by a "Flight Captain" (equivalent to a Major)
A Fleet or local Starfighter Force is commanded by a "Wing Commander" (equivalent to a Ground Forces Colonel)
Tactical deployment:
based around the 2-ship element (lead and wingman)
organised by 4-ship flight (colour coded)
active squadrons are 4-12 ships
Formation organisation:
4-ship flight
12-ship squadron
40-ship wing (includes med-light transports and support for independent field operations, includes shuttle bay on cruisers)
For Imperials:
Army and Navy starfighter forces are trained and organised differently.
Army,
Starfighter wing of 40 ships commanded by a Major
Squadrons of 6 ships commanded by a Captain-Lieutenant
Flights of 3 ships commanded by a Sub-Lieutenant
Navy,
Starfighter wing of 72 ships commanded by a Wing Commander (equivalent to a Major or local Moff)
Squadrons of 12 ships commanded by a Flight Captain
Flights of 4 ships commanded by a Lieutenant
Elements aren't used but understrength flights of 3-ships commanded by a Lieutenant are common in practise. Most large cruisers like Star Destroyers are capable of producing their own TIE replacements and maintenance parts, due to high attrition and low serviceability this is a constant practise and individual TIE squadrons will often function understrength unless the vessel is prepared for combat.
Imperial regional deployments or the fleet starfighter presence will overall be attached to the Army or Naval force commander directly. Imperial starfighter corps are not independent of their parent services, ship based units depend upon naval logistics, ground/station based units depend on army logistics and administrative command. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | Qualified starship pilots are a commissioned officer and ranked "Pilot Ensign" (equivalent to a Junior Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenant)
2 ship elements commanded by a "Lieutenant"
4 ship flights commanded by a "Senior Lieutenant" (equivalent to a Ground Forces Staff Lieutenant or Adjutant)
Squadrons are commanded by a "Commander"
Grouped squadrons with a common starfighter type are commanded by a "Captain-Lieutenant" (equivalent to a Ground Forces Captain)
A Starfighter Wing of mixed starfighter types is commanded by a "Flight Captain" (equivalent to a Major)
A Fleet or local Starfighter Force is commanded by a "Wing Commander" (equivalent to a Ground Forces Colonel) |
I'm confused by your system. You have Squadrons commanded by both Commanders (who are senior to 3 other officer ranks) and by Captain-Lieutenants, yet Captain Lieutenants are equal in rank to army captains (who are senior to only 2 other officer ranks).
Since there are starfighter units named "flight" and "wing" one would presume that a Flight Captain would command a flight and a Wing Commander would command a wing, but in fact neither does so.
US Navy/Army Real World Rank Comparison
Navy.........Army
Ensign = 2nd Lt
Lieutenant jg = 1st Lt
Lieutenant = Captain (commands an army company)
Lt Commander = Major
Commander = Lt Colonel
Captain (commands a large ship) = Colonel (commands a regiment) |
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 793
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | vanir wrote: | Qualified starship pilots are a commissioned officer and ranked "Pilot Ensign" (equivalent to a Junior Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenant)
2 ship elements commanded by a "Lieutenant"
4 ship flights commanded by a "Senior Lieutenant" (equivalent to a Ground Forces Staff Lieutenant or Adjutant)
Squadrons are commanded by a "Commander"
Grouped squadrons with a common starfighter type are commanded by a "Captain-Lieutenant" (equivalent to a Ground Forces Captain)
A Starfighter Wing of mixed starfighter types is commanded by a "Flight Captain" (equivalent to a Major)
A Fleet or local Starfighter Force is commanded by a "Wing Commander" (equivalent to a Ground Forces Colonel) |
I'm confused by your system. You have Squadrons commanded by both Commanders (who are senior to 3 other officer ranks) and by Captain-Lieutenants, yet Captain Lieutenants are equal in rank to army captains (who are senior to only 2 other officer ranks).
Since there are starfighter units named "flight" and "wing" one would presume that a Flight Captain would command a flight and a Wing Commander would command a wing, but in fact neither does so.
US Navy/Army Real World Rank Comparison
Navy.........Army
Ensign = 2nd Lt
Lieutenant jg = 1st Lt
Lieutenant = Captain (commands an army company)
Lt Commander = Major
Commander = Lt Colonel
Captain (commands a large ship) = Colonel (commands a regiment) |
Here are some more. I don't like the american organisation. I prefer euro. You do it rank down, euro does it posting up, meaning a flight lieutenant commands a squadron and a squadron leader commands a wing (or groups of squadrons), wing commanders command groups of wings and the group captain liases with the field commander, although has seniority in the air group. Orders pass to the group captain and from his office and adjutants to the field commanders but the staff flight is kept off the field and just runs admin mostly, meaning you're one scale down on what leads a flight as to rank versus posting.
Luftwaffe..............VVS.............................RAF
Leutnant...............Leytenant.....................Pilot Officer
Oberleutnant.........Starshileytenant............Flying Officer
Hauptmann...........Kapitan.........................Flight Lieutenant
Major...................Mayor...........................Squadron Leader
Oberstleutnant......Podpolkovnik.................Wing Commander
Oberst..................Polkovnik......................Group Captain
And where it gets confusing is posting doesn't necessarily reflect rank, it is separate from rank in the Luftwaffe and has a slight variation with other nations.
Staffelkaptän...................commands squadron (Oblt typical)
Gruppenkommandeur.......commands wing (Hpt typical)
Geschwaderkommodore....commands air group (Maj to Obst typical)
Fliegerführer.....................district command (HQ, staff/admin ranks)
but add intermediary/staff ranks with undefined commands
Technical Officer (Gruppe and Geschwaderstab)
Adjutant (Gruppe and Geschwaderstab)
Geschwader stab staffeln is in addition to the air group, so it is always Geschwader plus Stab when listing OOB by Gruppen.
The stab staffeln, or air group commander are separate from the group, organisation in the field is by wing or gruppen so the common practise is captains (USN Lt) leading wings or generic groups of squadrons and Majors (USN Lt.Cmdr) leading air groups in action. In posting terms this is Flight Captain and Wing Commander roles (with Air Group Commodore and district command Air General higher authorities, but largely administrative roles).
On top of that another piece of confusion is the SWU ranking system as written. It's a rather confused abstract tossing naval and army ranks in together to describe simply "Imperial ranks" and "Alliance ranks" whereby you need the rank structure for each service, which must logistically be different due to different organisation, therefore rank required to gain support services under autonomous authority.
My own revised Rebel Alliance ranking system (in our game, defined 1BBY)
Administrative/HQ......Navy................Starfighter corps...........Ground Forces.................SpecForce
Ambassador
Fleet Admiral
Marshall....................Admiral
...............................Vice Admiral..........................................General (Army)
...............................Commodore...........................................Lt.General (Army)
General (Staff)..........Rear Admiral..........................................Major General (Army).....General (SpFc)
Colonel.....................FleetCaptain...........WingCommander............Colonel........Colonel
Major.........................Ships Captain............Flight Captain............Major.............Major
Lt.Commander............Lt.Commander....Captain-Lieutenant........Captain..............Captain
Commander...............Commander...........Commander........Commander..........Commander
Captain (Admin)..........1st Lieutenant........Senior Lieutenant.......Staff Lieutenant.........Technical Officer
Lieutenant..................Lieutenant............Lieutenant................Lieutenant............Lieutenant
Adjutant....................Ensign..................Pilot Ensign.............Junior Lieutenant.........2nd Lieutenant
Staff Officer...............Gunnery Sergeant....Weapons Officer......Sergeant Major.........Master Sergeant
Administrator.............Sergeant..................Crew Chief.............Sergeant........Sergeant
Senior Clerk...............Deck Officer............Deck Officer...........Corporal......First Trooper
- and yes I know I put commander under lt.cmdr, which is the wrong way around in the USN however this was to resolve the SWU ranking system, which is overly simplistic but easy for players. So in the Rebs whenever you come across a Commander, generally a Captain is a higher rank unless you're in HQ where a Staff Captain is a lower rank but doesn't need to have many people under him, he does admin.
Players then simply know, Lieutenant, Commander, Captain, Admiral/General, and that's all fine and works for them, but I can do more detailed rank references during cinematic descriptions and it all seems atmospheric. |
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