Jedi Stats

[Tatum]

Question: Why is it that jedi characters start with less attribute dice, yet pretty much any jedi/sith character you see in the books has 18D? I understand the balance issues and that their starting force powers take away from attributes, but why didnt they translate this to all force users?

Of course, you can start as just "force sensitive" and have all 18D and eventually force powers. Ive always thought this was kind of a loop hole, but I suppose the intentions were that during the classic time period a force sensitive character might have to wait a LONG time before finding a master. In the long run though it does kind of seem like the starting jedi is at a disadvantage.

Somehow, I rarely had jedi in my groups when I GM'd, so I didnt have to deal with this often. How have some of you GM's, and players, dealt with this? Have you always just followed the rules on this one?

[Volar the Healer]

Jedi don't start with less attribute dice. There is a rule that says any character who starts with an advanced skill gives up one attribute die to represent the time spent learning the advanced skill. Force skills are advanced skills.

As to why don't NPC stats reflect this? I don't know.

Also, I often notice directors who don't follow the limitations on Jedi (double character points to increase a force skill, no new powers can be learned without a teacher, etc) then complain when the Jedi grow too powerful. I avoid this problem by holding the PC Jedi to these limitations.
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No Jesus, No Peace

[garhkal]

Too true, volar. As to the attribute die, their initial force skill allocation is part of their 18D. But as to npcs who have 18d and force skills, they probabily got bumped up as if they were a PC, who spent cp on the attributes...
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Endwyn]

If you pick up a new D6 book you can see how the force would have changed. Basicly there would be an attribute like Attunement and the three force skills under it. Attunement would actualy be an attribute and would cost the same as any other during creation and game play. The way the powers would work would change as well. Basicly, when you roll sense, control, or alter you add that value to your attunment to decide what to roll. (ie sense 1D, attunement 1D - roll 2D) That roll decides if a power is effective. Then you would roll attunement to get an effect value. So, a jedi with 1D attunement would get little effect from enhance attribute while a jedi master 5Dish attunement would get a considerlby larger buff. It makes them more equal at creation and slows their astronomical progression to keep them from being too unbalanced.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Volar the Healer]

This is D6 Space?
_________________
Know Jesus, Know Peace.
No Jesus, No Peace

[Endwyn]

Adventure, Space, and Fantasy use the new system; but Space would be easiest since the three are really close to sense alter and control with new names. Instead of using Attunement I believe they use the word metaphysics...but for Star Wars attunement would work better.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Vanion]

I set every campaigne in the Rebellion era and because of this, I have never had any problems with my jedi players ever getting too powerful. I also use the double-cost for advancement and no new force powers (without a teacher).

However... I do not follow the reduced attribute guidelines. I didn't know that the force skills were considered specialized or advanced. But...since attributes are MUCH more costly than skills to improve, I don't think a loss of attributes is very fair for the jedi characters... instead... I take the added 'D' away from the character's starting 7D. I feel that, at least during the Rebellion era, jedi players have enough hardships... being hunted, double-cost for force skill advancement, and no easy way to learn new force powers (Learning a new power often involves a special adventure all of it's own when I GM).
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"Life is not measured in years, but by deeds"

[Soniv]

I don't remember there being a double character point cost for force skills, nor them being listed as an advanced skill. I'm not opposed to these rules (In fact, I rather prefer them), but I just don't remember seeing them in any of the rulebooks. Can anyone show me where this is?

[Endwyn]

Pg 140 of R&E - Second light brown box, located at the bottom right of the page and continues on the top left of 141.

[Soniv]

Ah, right. The way Volar and Vanion said it, it seemed as if it were double points universal. That seemed odd to me, hence why I asked. Thanks for the clarification, Endwyn.

[garhkal]

I know of 2 gms who actually have the BASE cost with teacher be double, and quadrouple without.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Phalanks Balas]

[Endwyn]

Here's the deal and an example:

A young Jedi is down 3 attribute dice, a factor that balances his character for the rest of the game, or it's supposed to. Unfortunetly, even then as the jedi starts to have 5D+ in all force skills they can simply access so much that they can out manuever the other PC's unless put in a situation where the force is useless.

Now imagine for a second if the Jedi in the group started to teach another PC in game. Well, that PC had no initial attribute loss and is by far ahead of the other PC's now. Even with limited force ability their cost was 30 charater points, or what if spent in game is probably the effect of 2D-3D of skill. (I figure about 5 CP's a raise, but gave an extra skill die for variance and error.) Now latter on you figure their power level vs that. When the force is weak it's so easy to raise...even without a teacher. Going from 1D to 3D in one force skill costs a total of 18 CP's. In the example of the Jedi PC training another PC, it would cost him 27 CP's to raise all three force skills from 1D to 3D. I would speculate that the group has a teacher or one of their PC's is teaching.

Sadly Jedi are balanceable on lower levels, but as soon as they can wield a lightsaber they should have enough force skill that they could easily dominate the game. How many other PC's have say - a 5D skill that gets +6D to hit and every hit does at least 10D damage. People tend to figure out their odd and the Jedi will begin to call 6 attacks rolling 6D each, calling each attack to a different target since it is unlikely anything will survive 10D+ damage. There are of course other ways through the force the Jedi are no longer balanced against other PC's; lightsbaers are just a great example.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[Vanion]

[Endwyn]

No, I didn't mean a player could start with their force skills all at 5D+, they'd get there in game.

As for the damage / multiple action penalties....I was doing damage math for a different skill level than 5D without thinking about it, you are correct in the method of LC. As for being prone - so long as the character has a good dodge, they could avoid the damage. The jedi aren't invinsible, but they could definatly do better in those situations than other PC's; and that was the point despite my flawed math....
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.