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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Snipers |
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| jmanski wrote: |
I don't know, with all the bonuses snipers get from their weapons, I'd say 5d would be plenty (and not much of a stretch, either) |
And what of when they don't have all those nifty toys? Most RL snipers i know personally would rather be damn good with the weapon before they add in all the bells and whistles... Some even train that way.
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Crimson_red
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 113
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Looking at the numbers and the rules, I have one question, Do you allow the +1D bonus for preparing/aiming (preparing, pg81 2R&E) stack with the aiming bonus granted by many of the scopes/weapons? I'm inclined to say yes, but since they often have the same requirement of aiming for a round, I thought I'd ask for opinions (I'm also curious to see how many remembered to use both if you do allow them to stack?).
I've also decided to to lower the typical target number a typical sniper is expected to hit reliably to 30 (reducing the base difficulty to flat 16), various complications that would raise the base difficulty would basically turning it into a 'difficult' (not mechanically speaking) shot, thus not a typical shot anymore. This reduces the needed dice pool to 9D. Assuming scopes/aim assist stacks with aiming, we could reduce the needed skill down to 6D, for a typical professional sniper, this seems a reasonable level of expected competency.
6D (skill) + 1D aiming (preparing) + 1D equipment (Scope/aim assist) + 1D spotter/assistance (combining actions) = 9D Dice Pool
Snipers with exceptional skill or equipment could muster much more impressive dice pools, hitting much more difficult shots reliably. I could see a lot of substandard armed forces and militias fielding even less skilled marksman in the sniper role, simply due to an inability to train or recruit better personnel (perhaps 3D-5D).
Another consideration, using the realities of the D6 system, snipers may not even need to be this skilled, as called shots is not always a necessity, and may only rarely be so. Even if you want to call your shot, head and hearts are often larger than 10cm... okay, you'd think living in canada would instill in me a better understanding of the size of a cm... since my palm is 10cm, and my head closer to 23cm...
BIG EDIT: I think I'll go high this time, since the numbers are so low...
Target Number: 20 (Difficult) + 1D (called shot, 10-50cm) = 24 (you may notice, I've been rounding up a lot)
That requires roughly 7D to hit reliably. If these numbers are a good baseline, and the modifiers in the section above relevant, then as little as 4D can make a competent sniper, and 5D a solid expectation for an typical sniper. 6D or 7D means they could reliably hit the target using iron sights and no assistance.
If that is true, implementing rules for extreme ranges may be a worthwhile move. Though the current rules for rifle seem to solidly depict effective range, they always struck me as short for maximum ranges... or something like that.
It could be noted, the previous numbers could still be valid since a brain and heart are hardly much bigger than a palm... but I do have relatively big palms too... |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Thus, the Empire may well consider them assassins. |
And that was my point. The difference between a sniper and an assassin is sometimes (not always) based on a certain point of view rather than any objective difference.
| Crimson_red wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | How high should their blaster, firearms, missile weapons, or whatever skills be? |
We could look at the base assumptions of what a typical (I know, I know, just want to keep it simple  ) sniper is expected to accomplish reliably and extrapolate their skill from there... |
That makes sense, but you also need to look at the skills chart to make sure you don't set the skill too high.
6D - Considered about the best in a city or geographic area. About 1 in 100,000 people
7D - Among the best on a continent. About 1 in 10,000,000 people
8D - Among the best on a planet. About 1 in 100,000,000 people
9D - One of the best for several systems in the area. About 1 in a billion people Obviously a typical military sniper is not 1 in a billion and probably should not be 1 in 100 million - unless you think there are only 3 people in North America who qualify as "snipers" (8D skill) or 5 or 6 people total on earth (9D skill).
| Crimson_red wrote: | | Looking at the numbers and the rules, I have one question, Do you allow the +1D bonus for preparing/aiming (preparing, pg81 2R&E) stack with the aiming bonus granted by many of the scopes/weapons? |
It has never come up in our game, but I would for someone who is a sniper (whatever we choose that to mean). |
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Crimson_red
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 113
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | That makes sense, but you also need to look at the skills chart to make sure you don't set the skill too high.
6D - Considered about the best in a city or geographic area. About 1 in 100,000 people
7D - Among the best on a continent. About 1 in 10,000,000 people
8D - Among the best on a planet. About 1 in 100,000,000 people
9D - One of the best for several systems in the area. About 1 in a billion people Obviously a typical military sniper is not 1 in a billion and probably should not be 1 in 100 million - unless you think there are only 3 people in North America who qualify as "snipers" (8D skill) or 5 or 6 people total on earth (9D skill). |
Oh, I agree completely, and I was working with that assumption too, both for my more challenging assumptions and for the lesser ones. Even if you assume a sniper needs a dice pool of 9D, you can assume lower skill level, that was why I was looking so much at potential modifiers to add it (1D aiming, 1D scope, 1D spotter/assistance, etc). With just those bonuses, a 6D skill is enough, even lower if you don't expect such a hard target, like I mentioned in my previous post, 4D-6D seems to fill the necessary range.
EDIT: I also concluded I may have been a little to high as well, hence why decided to explore my assumptions a little more in the previous post. |
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Downstrike
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Joined: 03 Mar 2012
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Snipers |
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| Bren wrote: | What do you think about them?
How high should their blaster, firearms, missile weapons, or whatever skills be?
Are snipers different than assassins and if so, how? |
So what about advanced sneak skills and camouflage and the ability to eat the mrs cheese without getting so gassy that you give up your position. Have a dope skill that gives similar bonuses to command but only for the weapons you train with (and would write a dope book for) .
Maybe some intimidation and a whole lot of repair for doing mods and kicking charging bolts that are jammed.
An argument skill so they always win when someone has an opposite view on the remington 700.
Just spitballin. Not a sniper or even 11B. Someone needs ta pick the brain of the former sniper for game mechanics.
1,2,3... NOT IT! |
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Downstrike
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Snipers |
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| Bren wrote: | What do you think about them?
How high should their blaster, firearms, missile weapons, or whatever skills be?
Are snipers different than assassins and if so, how? |
So what about advanced sneak skills and camouflage and the ability to eat the mrs cheese without getting so gassy that you give up your position. Have a dope skill that gives similar bonuses to command but only for the weapons you train with (and would write a dope book for) .
Maybe some intimidation and a whole lot of repair for doing mods and kicking charging bolts that are jammed.
An argument skill so they always win when someone has an opposite view on the remington 700.
Just spitballin. Not a sniper or even 11B. Someone needs ta pick the brain of the former sniper for game mechanics.
1,2,3... NOT IT! |
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jmanski
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Crimson_red wrote: | | Bren wrote: | That makes sense, but you also need to look at the skills chart to make sure you don't set the skill too high.
6D - Considered about the best in a city or geographic area. About 1 in 100,000 people
7D - Among the best on a continent. About 1 in 10,000,000 people
8D - Among the best on a planet. About 1 in 100,000,000 people
9D - One of the best for several systems in the area. About 1 in a billion people Obviously a typical military sniper is not 1 in a billion and probably should not be 1 in 100 million - unless you think there are only 3 people in North America who qualify as "snipers" (8D skill) or 5 or 6 people total on earth (9D skill). |
Oh, I agree completely, and I was working with that assumption too, both for my more challenging assumptions and for the lesser ones. Even if you assume a sniper needs a dice pool of 9D, you can assume lower skill level, that was why I was looking so much at potential modifiers to add it (1D aiming, 1D scope, 1D spotter/assistance, etc). With just those bonuses, a 6D skill is enough, even lower if you don't expect such a hard target, like I mentioned in my previous post, 4D-6D seems to fill the necessary range.
EDIT: I also concluded I may have been a little to high as well, hence why decided to explore my assumptions a little more in the previous post. |
That was my line of thinking.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Crimson_red wrote: | | Looking at the numbers and the rules, I have one question, Do you allow the +1D bonus for preparing/aiming (preparing, pg81 2R&E) stack with the aiming bonus granted by many of the scopes/weapons? I'm inclined to say yes, but since they often have the same requirement of aiming for a round, I thought I'd ask for opinions (I'm also curious to see how many remembered to use both if you do allow them to stack?). |
Aiming to me is WITHOUT a scope. If you have a scope, you use its bonus (or aiming if he scopes bonus is lower).. Basically which ever is higher, not both combined.
[quote="Crimson_red"]6D (skill) + 1D aiming (preparing) + 1D equipment (Scope/aim assist) + 1D spotter/assistance (combining actions) = 9D Dice Pool /quote]
1 thing wrong there. to get the combined action bonus the person assisting has to be doing the same (shooting for combat).. So no bonus from a spotter would be netted.
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Fallon Kell
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
Aiming to me is WITHOUT a scope. If you have a scope, you use its bonus (or aiming if he scopes bonus is lower).. Basically which ever is higher, not both combined. |
Really? Why? A sniper looking through his scope and taking a moment to do the windage and drop math to find his hold, and getting a 1D bonus for it seems like the most natural thing in the world to me...
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Crimson_red
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 113
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Aiming to me is WITHOUT a scope. If you have a scope, you use its bonus (or aiming if he scopes bonus is lower).. Basically which ever is higher, not both combined. |
In that case, wouldn't it be redundant to include notes for weapons which offer the exact same benefit and limitation as aiming (preparing)? I only ask because using a prepared action can net the character a +1D bonus regardless of the weapon (barring GM intervention), yet only weapons with scopes or similar aim assist have the additional note included, and in the majority of the cases, is effectively the same/unchanged. What would be the intent of including the note, and the bonus, if it is no alteration at all?
I suppose it could be there simply to serve as a reminder for those more precise weapons, since SW does seem to put the greatest emphasis on the capabilities of the characters, despite the 'high tech' nature of the setting. What do others think?
| garhkal wrote: | | 1 thing wrong there. to get the combined action bonus the person assisting has to be doing the same (shooting for combat).. So no bonus from a spotter would be netted. |
So is there no way a spotter can assist with the actual sniping part of being a sniper, and for that to be represented mechanically? In other words, you don't think there is anyway a spotter can assist/combine a blaster or firearms roll without actually fire a shot or more? How about if combining actions had a different name, like aid another? Would allowing people to combined offensive actions like this be disruptive towards the game if the assistant fails to actually utilize some ammunition/fires a shot? Regardless, I do see the combined action rule as the simplest and easiest way of quantifying the spotters role in the final shot, and has the added benefit of allowing you to distribute the bonus between the attack and damage, making it easier to get that elusive one shot kill that is so hard to represent in many game systems.
Given the nature of sniping, I would think the spotter could use his weapon skill to assist in more ways than just firing an additional shot, such as noting windage, yardage, and making similar observations that the shooter could use help with, concurring with any decisions/adjustments the shooter makes or even doing some of them himself so the shooter can focus more on the shot. Then again, I'm not entirely sure of the exact roll of the spotter, not being a sniper, or even more than an poor to average marksman. Does the spotter assist in the shot in any meaningful way?
It certainly could make a good point for creating a separate advanced skill used for sniping...
Beyond the sniper and the spotter, what other means do snipers have for improving their dice pool? |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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The spotter provides valuable information, but to actually affect the shot (change the D code being rolled), I think you need to have hands on the rifle. Mostly, from a D6 perspective, he allows the shooter to focus on his job (preparation bonuses and no MAPs).
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jmanski
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | garhkal wrote: |
Aiming to me is WITHOUT a scope. If you have a scope, you use its bonus (or aiming if he scopes bonus is lower).. Basically which ever is higher, not both combined. |
Really? Why? A sniper looking through his scope and taking a moment to do the windage and drop math to find his hold, and getting a 1D bonus for it seems like the most natural thing in the world to me... |
If you aim with a scope you get the scope bonus +1d for preparing as far as I'm concerned.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | garhkal wrote: |
Aiming to me is WITHOUT a scope. If you have a scope, you use its bonus (or aiming if he scopes bonus is lower).. Basically which ever is higher, not both combined. |
Really? Why? A sniper looking through his scope and taking a moment to do the windage and drop math to find his hold, and getting a 1D bonus for it seems like the most natural thing in the world to me... |
Even back in the days when i did 2e shadowrun, you either got aiming, or scope bonuses, not both. So to me it was a natural house ruling for 2e starwars.
BUT i can see the logic in allowing it for SW..
| Quote: | | So is there no way a spotter can assist with the actual sniping part of being a sniper, and for that to be represented mechanically? In other words, you don't think there is anyway a spotter can assist/combine a blaster or firearms roll without actually fire a shot or more? |
By the RAW.. no. Take a look at all other combining actions situations. to gain the bonus both (or more) people are doing the same task.. not one giving advice/talking/info, and one doing it.
| Quote: | | Beyond the sniper and the spotter, what other means do snipers have for improving their dice pool? |
Recoil suppressors on the butt stock, to aid in canceling out any potential recoil (which i do feel most weapons in SW lack). Bi-pods to give more steadying of the weapon.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Combined Actions. Two or more characters can work
together to more effectively accomplish a single task: this
process is called combined actions.
Combined actions can be used for combat (several
stormtroopers shooting at a single character) or a situation
where several characters are working closely together (a
group of mechanics overhauling a busted landspeeder or
several Rebels working to build a rope bridge across a
canyon).
The characters must agree to combine actions. The only
other thing a combining character can do is roll reaction
skills (such as dodge, melee parry or brawling parry).
The character in the group with the highest command
skill (or Perception attribute) is the leader. He can only
command as many characters as he has command skill dice. |
The rules don't say that all characters must be taking the same action or even using the same skill. In fact in the example of building a rope bridge one would reasonably infer that different actions (some sort of TEC skill for construction, maybe melee combat for swinging an axe to chop down trees, maybe climbing or swimming for working on the bridge, lifting for carrying, etc.).
I don't see anything in the RAW that would exclude a spotter and a sniper from combining on the sniping. Of course combining may mean someone has to make a command roll (and possibly get a MAP). |
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Crimson_red
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Location: British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | The spotter provides valuable information, but to actually affect the shot (change the D code being rolled), I think you need to have hands on the rifle. Mostly, from a D6 perspective, he allows the shooter to focus on his job (preparation bonuses and no MAPs). |
With aiming working the way it does, I don't see MAPs being a large concern for a sniper taken a shot, what sorts of actions would you consider common considerations for a sniper, besides the attack roll?
You do make a good point about the value of a +1D modifier; if the spotter is granting that kind of bonus he needs to be accomplishing something substantial. Would people consider giving real-time information updates, and perhaps adjustment calculations so the shooter can focus more on the shot worth such a bonus? Should SW aim assistance tech be sufficient to handle all this on its own, making such assistance superfluous?
What about if someone introduced a sniping advanced skill? Garhkal, you were working on one, correct? If such a skill was in use, would the combined action be a more acceptable option in that case?
| Bren wrote: | | I don't see anything in the RAW that would exclude a spotter and a sniper from combining on the sniping. Of course combining may mean someone has to make a command roll (and possibly get a MAP). |
Yeah, it does appear unspecific on the point, though garhkal does have a point of there being no examples of differential combined actions, but in none of the examples does is specify if the assistance takes the form of the same activity or even skill, just that they are working towards the same result. In the end it would of course be at GMs discretion as to whether its is possible or not.
If allowing it, I'd say the spotter would certainly be taking MAPs on his command roll (counter productive for the sniper to make it), and I'd probably make it a difficult roll, perhaps worse if the team is unfamiliar with each other. The command roll would be the spotters skill at communicating the necessary assistance/information when it is needed. A failed roll isn't suppose to impose a penalty, RAW, but given the delicate nature of the task, I could see a failure causing a -1D penalty.
| garhkal wrote: | | Recoil suppressors on the butt stock, to aid in canceling out any potential recoil (which i do feel most weapons in SW lack). Bi-pods to give more steadying of the weapon. |
Those are good suggestion, what sort of bonuses would you attribute to them, would you give a full 1D? They are both dealing with stabilizing the weapon, albeit in different ways, would the bonus stack in this case? I could see other tech performing a similar task, more expensive gear might use a form or repulsor or inertial compensatory to help support or stabilize the weapon too, could offer better support, but at the risk of more easily malfunctioning/getting damaged.
I might ask if they'd stack with the scope too, as it seems some of the aim assist and fire control entries include stabilization features as well. Probably a silly question, if someone add these items to their weapon, it would all be folded into a single entry, something like +2D bonus when aiming for a round before firing (+1D scope, +2 Bi-pod & +1 recoil suppressor).
I'm still stuck on stacking aiming (prepared action) and scopes, but I can certainly see the other side of the coin, so to speak. Question is, is receiving a +2D on attack rolls (more if you have the credits) worth only being able to make a single attack over two rounds, or is it too much? |
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