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Your Opinion On why firearms become obsolete
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:21 am    Post subject: Your Opinion On why firearms become obsolete Reply with quote

ok, im curious as to what others think why firearms(slug throwers) became obsolete in star wars.

having shot more rounds than just about anyone i know of, of various pistol and rifle calibers for years. im wondering if the weapons went from bullets to energy was more of a political deal than whats most effective.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: Your Opinion On why firearms become obsolete Reply with quote

thedemonapostle wrote:
ok, im curious as to what others think why firearms(slug throwers) became obsolete in star wars.

having shot more rounds than just about anyone i know of, of various pistol and rifle calibers for years. im wondering if the weapons went from bullets to energy was more of a political deal than whats most effective.


I cant think of a 'political' reason. Weapons development tend to follow effectiveness.

-Lesser cleaning/maintenence
-'Shot' travels in a straight line.
-More damage
-Less ammo to haul around (big reason why the switch from 7,62 to 5,56mm).
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've shot a few rounds off myself, but I can think of one major reason.

"Look at me guys, I've got a FRICKIN' LASER! How awesome is THAT!?!?"

Smile
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Crimson_red
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I would put my bet on ammo and weight. I don't recall how its been expressed in game systems but I figure a blaster would be both lighter than and have considerably lighter ammunition than an equivalent slug thrower.

Going off my poor memory, doesn't a blaster pistol do about the same damage as a slug thrower rifle (this I can only remember from d20 - 3d6 vs. 2d8), weighs less, fires 100 shots before the power pack needs replacing, and 500 shots before the blaster gas needs being refilled.

Given the cheap price of recharging power packs or replacing them and presumably of blaster gas, I would guess that the price per shot is also considerably cheaper than for firearms

Never mentioning a blaster is unlikely affected by wind and similar environmental conditions, fires a laser straight course instead of a ballistic course, and likely has fewer moving parts to knock loose. A blaster does seem to have a recoil after every shot, but it could be notably less than an equivalent firearm.

All these factors probably favor the blaster as a weapon over a firearm.

Though I'm sure a blaster has its disadvantages too; if a part breaks, it maybe less likely the user can repair it himself without replacing it, and in a place wear metal seems to be a common part of a working wardrobe, a slugthrower may be easier to slip past weapon detectors, especially if it doesn't use any form of explosive propellant.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Efficiency - Blaster gas likely delivers more energy per volume when converted to energy by a blaster's firing mechanism. It also makes it possible to carry a much larger ammo load, as well as the shot being completely consumed on firing (no shell casings).

Ease Of Use - Since it fires a linear discharge, it is easier to use and requires less training, since the shooter will not have to calculate things like windage and drop; just point and shoot. A blaster will still have to deal with some environmental considerations, but not nearly to the degree of a firearm.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think that it would be due to a combination of factors.

1) Better ammo capacity.
2) A soldier can carry more ammo on him easier. A couple of spare clips allows a solider to fire his weapon 300 times at a fraction of the weight of 300 bullets.
3) Easier reloading and no need for manufactured ammo. Anybody with a power generator can reload a clip. That's not only a blessing in terms of logistics, but also in terms of units under siege. As long as the unit has power, it won't run out of ammo.
4) Fewer moving parts, or exposed components. So the weapons should wear out slower, and be more reliable..
5) It's probably a lot cheaper than shooting bullets.
6) It's probably fire a more powerful shot that a bullet.
7) Energy weapons appear to be better able to penetrate armor than projectile weapons.
8) The weapon can be set on stun, giving the shooter more options, both in terms of self defense, and in terms of capturing prisoners for interrogation.
9) Since all the weapons run on energy, there is a high degree of compatibility. People don't have to find ammo of a specific caliber, load,or rifling to match a specific weapon. Troops in the field can even scavenge power packs from the enemy.
10) Keeping up with the Jones. Somebody would probably look a bit primitive using a slugthrower while everybody else has a high tech raygun.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#5 Better penetration (body armor has a lower energy protection than physical protection)

#4 Increased damage (blasters do ~ +1D more damage than similar firearms)

#3 Greater ammunition capacity – 100 shot power packs are lighter and cheaper per shot than firearms; also power packs are rechargeable

#2 learning time / ease of use - the straight line (non-ballistic path) makes learning to shoot easier for a blaster than a firearm*

#1 Rule of Cool! Blasters are a far cooler space opera weapon than any kind of slug throwers.




* Note that in the real world in the hands of a trained user longbows are a superior weapon (based on effective range, rate of fire, and accuracy) to the musket that replaced the bow. The primary advantage to the musket is that it takes less time and training to learn to use it effectively.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus, a 357 magnum cannot be set to stun.
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I cant think of a 'political' reason. Weapons development tend to follow effectiveness.

historically we changed from the 7.62x51mm round to the 5.56x45mm round as a political deal.

regarding ammo capacity: having more ammo doesnt always mean more effective. just look at the effectiveness of the 5.56x45mm vs 7.62x39mm/7.62x51mm.

curious thought, vs the standard blaster pistol 4D, what would everyone think would be the damage of a .22 long rifle(150 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .357 magnum(675 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .45acp(520 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .500S&W(2750 foot lbs muzzle energy).

what about a blaster rifle, 5D, vs common rifle rounds: .223 remington(1300 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .30-06 springfield(2900 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .308 winchester(2700 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .45-70 government(2800 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .50BMG(14,000 foot lbs muzzle energy)



ive seen a lot of good points, but im still not full convinced that blasters are more effective than firearms overall, granted blasters do penetrate better against space age armors and most have a stun setting. plus ive got to wonder why in a combat situation, ie wars, what is the general purpose of a stun setting when your trying to eliminate your opponent as quickly and as effectively as possible, and from a psychological perspective, as terrifying as possible. whereas a blaster will leave a small burned hole in the target and a bit of smoke, a bullet will usually leave a gruesome mess behind, armored or not(more so if not).





Quote:
"Look at me guys, I've got a FRICKIN' LASER! How awesome is THAT!?!?"

3 point for the win!


ps: when it comes to making custom weapons for characters i typically use the rule of averages. on 1D you'll mathematically roll a 3.5. so your average human, 2D, will typically resist whatever with an average roll of 7. so your average blaster pistol, 4D, will do 14 damage. so the blaster pistol vs the human will only cause 7 damage putting the human at wounded status, "a penalty of -1D to skill and attribute rolls until he heals"
any thoughts on this method.
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Crimson_red
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thedemonapostle wrote:
regarding ammo capacity: having more ammo doesnt always mean more effective.


But ammo weight is a huge concern for soldiers on foot, and it appears blaster ammo is lighter and cheaper and more convenient as covered repeatedly above.

As for effective, I think that was largely covered too. Blasters typically do more damage than their counter parts, are less effected by armor (energy protection is usually lower and they don't suffer additional penalties to modern armor), and are likely more accurate (no balistic, no wind, likely moves faster, etc).

thedemonapostle wrote:
curious thought, vs the standard blaster pistol 4D, what would everyone think would be the damage of a .22 long rifle(150 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .357 magnum(675 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .45acp(520 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .500S&W(2750 foot lbs muzzle energy).


I'd treat a 22LR around 2D damage, .357 & .45acp at 3D, and the .500 at 4D (assumming an average pistol round wroughly at 3D and using the numbers you gave to extrapolate the others).

thedemonapostle wrote:
what about a blaster rifle, 5D, vs common rifle rounds: .223 remington(1300 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .30-06 springfield(2900 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .308 winchester(2700 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .45-70 government(2800 foot lbs muzzle energy) vs .50BMG(14,000 foot lbs muzzle energy)


All but the .50BMG at 4D, with the last... 6D, maybe 7D.

This is of course speaking very generally without added stats or considering what kind of weapon we're talking about, example: is the 22LR mounted in a holdout, a pistol, a rifle... what kind of action, etc. They do inform its use.

EDIT:

thedemonapostle wrote:
from a psychological perspective, as terrifying as possible. whereas a blaster will leave a small burned hole in the target and a bit of smoke, a bullet will usually leave a gruesome mess behind, armored or not(more so if not).


I wouldn't discount the psychological effects of blasters either, they're just as noisy, fill the air with flashes and splashes of light and death, could affect night vision, and explode on impact, adds the smell of burnt flesh, more if it rips open a stomach or such... and their is always the possibility of creating the sensation of burning on the inside of the wounded and dying and the associated screams... less blood though... but their are always disruptors if you're feeling cruel...

They also hit with enough force to throw a man it would seem, something we know firearms can't do right (unless we're going to apply the same Hollywood physics to firearms as blasters, lol)


Last edited by Crimson_red on Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
I've shot a few rounds off myself, but I can think of one major reason.

"Look at me guys, I've got a FRICKIN' LASER! How awesome is THAT!?!?"

Smile


Too true.. IMO a lot was to deal with
A) Supply issues.. As i know from experience, cold or real bad heat can ruin rounds for firearms.
B) maintenance of firearms is a b**** in dusty environs.. maybe not so for blasters.

Quote:
Though I'm sure a blaster has its disadvantages too; if a part breaks, it maybe less likely the user can repair it himself without replacing it, and in a place wear metal seems to be a common part of a working wardrobe, a slugthrower may be easier to slip past weapon detectors, especially if it doesn't use any form of explosive propellant.


And my fave disadvantage to blasters.

THEY CAN'T BE SILENCED!

Quote:
10) Keeping up with the Jones. Somebody would probably look a bit primitive using a slugthrower while everybody else has a high tech raygun.


My character in our sparks game never has that issues.. Heck i am up to around 9 fellow players who have begged me to teach them firearms.. cause they see how effective i am with them.

Quote:
Plus, a 357 magnum cannot be set to stun.


I will admit, that is one of the only downsides i always see.

Quote:
ive seen a lot of good points, but im still not full convinced that blasters are more effective than firearms overall, granted blasters do penetrate better against space age armors and most have a stun setting. plus ive got to wonder why in a combat situation, ie wars, what is the general purpose of a stun setting when your trying to eliminate your opponent as quickly and as effectively as possible, and from a psychological perspective, as terrifying as possible. whereas a blaster will leave a small burned hole in the target and a bit of smoke, a bullet will usually leave a gruesome mess behind, armored or not(more so if not).


Plus some firearms have that massive punch factor that can cause their bullets to penetrate steel and stone, where as we don't see that with blasters... How much more terrifying would it be to see your cover get chipped away...
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd treat a 22LR around 2D damage, .357 & .45acp at 3D, and the .500 at 4D (assumming an average pistol round wroughly at 3D and using the numbers you gave to extrapolate the others).

All but the .50BMG at 4D, with the last... 6D, maybe 7D.


care to explain why one on the smallest common rounds available does half the damage of one of largest common pistol rounds available, which in turn you've listed as the same damage as the damage you gave for .223 rem/.308win/.30-06 spr/.45-70 gov.

not tying to start a an argument, just trying to get a why.
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on a side thought, where are the weapons that transition from firearms as we know them, to the blasters in star wars?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pulse wave weapons in Tales of the Jedi. Firearms are still used by the beast men in the comics I believe, but the "new weapons" are pulse wave technology.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blasters can fire in any environment, where bullets need the right level of oxygen in the atmosphere to fire correctly.

And I'll still argue against the silencing of blasters vs. firearms. Anything over a low-powered .22 or 9mm can't be silenced.
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