How do your PCs survive NPCs who Quad FPs?

[Bren]

This question is directed to those of you that allow characters to spend a FP normally, then call on the Dark Side to get an additional FP, and then combine the FP to give x4 skills and attributes or so-called "quadding."

How do your PCs survive encounters with NPC Dark Siders?

To see why I am asking, here is an example:

Darth Exemplus
DEX 3D lightsaber 8D
STR 3D
Control 6D, Sense 6D, Alter 6D
These stats seem appropriate for a reasonably tough Dark Jedi that I might expect experienced PCs (with similar skill levels) to face. But obviously Darth Exemplus is no where near Darth Vader's power.

(1) According to the RAW, using Lightsaber Combat gives Darth Exemplus a lightsaber attack and parry of 11D = 8D+6D-3D for four actions (attack, parry, control, & sense) and damage of 8D=5D+6D-3D.

(2) Using a FP with LSC he has attack and parry of 25D=16D+12D-3D and does 14D=5D+12D-3D damage. His STR for soak rolls is 6D.

(3) Using a FP and calling on the Dark Side using his 12D control and assuming a low-average roll of 3 per die we expect Darth E to be able to roll a 36 which would allow him to make a Call on the Dark side roll even if he was not trying to do harm or cause pain to others and even if this is the 6th time he has called on the dark side in this adventure. (It gets easier the first five times and if he is trying to do harm or cause pain.) So clearly succeeding in a few Calls is highly likely for Darth E.

Now using 2 FPs with LSC Darth E has attack and parry of 52D = 32D+24D-4D and he does 25D=5D+24D-4D of damage. His STR for soak rolls is 12D. (Here I assumed that Calling on the Dark Side counts as an additional action. It's not clear to me from the description that this is actually the case.)

The minimum roll for Darth E's attack and parry is 50 the expected roll is 182. The minimum damage is 23 points, the expected damage is 87 points.

How does any player survive an encounter (much less win an encounter) with Darth Exemplus when Darth E uses a FP and successfully calls on the dark side?

Bonus Question: How would Luke Skywalker (with his stats as in RotJ) survive or defeat Darth Exemplus?

[garhkal]

[Bren]

Two questions immediately occur to me from this example.

(1) Why did the Dark Sider wait three rounds to call on the Dark Side? It doesn't cost him anything to do it - since he has no real chance of failure when using a FP. And calling each round only increases the difficulty from easy the first round to easy +6 the third round. So why wait until he is wounded and all the stormtroopers are dead before calling on the dark side?

(2) Why did the villain try to use Flames of Anger against all six targets when finally calling on the Dark Side? That seems like a very high risk, suboptimal plan based on what he knows i.e. that the six attackers have wounded him and wiped out his elite stormtroopers in only two rounds - therefore they are pretty skilled and two of them have lightsabers and so must be skilled in the Force.

Rationally he should have just used his lightsaber to attack the three people close to him. That would give him better parries/dodges against the attacks against him since the overall MAPs are lower. (And really he only needs to dodge the magnacaster since he can parry blasters, lightsabers, and hands or feet with his lightsaber).

That would give him a lightsaber attack (and parry) of (9D+ 7D+2)x4=64D+8 less MAPs and a damage roll for each attack of 5D+(7D+1)x4=33D+4 less MAPs. The MAPs would be -9D based on (wounded, dodge, dodge, parry, parry, control, sense, attack, attack, attack). So he would have attacks on the three closest PCs of 55D+8 against each of them. Their paltry FPed parry will not stop the power of the Dark Side (average roll of 200) so all three are hit for 24D+4 damage each (average roll of 88 points) and even a FP'd Wookiee max STR roll of 72 is no match for the power of the Dark Side. This attack should have obliterated the three PCs next to him in a single round.

Now next round he can call on the dark side again taking the +3 to the easy difficulty for calling a second time and quads again. I think we can guess how that is likely to go...not well for the PCs.

This is the problem I have with Quadding. Unless the villain uses suboptimal tactics he will annihilate the PCs.

[Fallon Kell]

[atgxtg]

In other words, the GM nerfed the Darksider so he would be ineffective.

First, the Darksider fights six opponents at once all by his lonesome, then he waits until he is injured before calling on the darkside, and when he finally does call on the Dark Side, he goes for a long shot.

It looks to me like the Darksider is not just overconfident, but stupid. He is acting like he is supposed to lose, and isn't even making an effort.

Now if the bad guy had brought along some flunkies, then concentrated on the Jedi PC, quadded up and just killed or incapacitated one or two PCs in the first round, using Lightsaber Combat....

[garhkal]

[Bren]

[Grimace]

Considering I would never have the situation you presented occur in my games, Bren, I can't answer. A dark sider can't get quadded in my games, so I don't have to worry about it.

As for the people who do get quadded, since they're lashing out and they're players, they generally massacre a bunch of people and get another DSP added on to the one they got for calling on the Dark Side. Then they roll once to see if they have fallen to the Dark Side for the first DSP they got (for calling on the dark side) and then roll again to see if they fall to the dark side for all of the killing they did in the fit of anger or aggressiveness.

I suppose I might let a major NPC do this if they weren't a dark sider and there might be a PC or two in the way that might have a beast of time getting out unscathed. But I haven't done that yet in a game so I haven't had to deal with it. Only time I've ever had anyone call on the dark side and get quadded was a PC. He avoided falling to the dark side, barely.

The one time I had Vader against a bunch of PCs, he didn't even need to call on the dark side. He was so powerful just as he was with normal FP expenditure from what he had. He never ran out of FPs so he didn't need to call on the dark side to get more. (see the other thread if you're confused on what I mean by the last sentence.)

[Esoomian]

So does anyone other than Garhkal use quadding for NPCs?
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.

Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view.

[Raven Redstar]

I don't. My NPCs are hard enough as is. Most of the time they are the "behind the scenes type."
_________________
RR
________________________________________________________________

[atgxtg]

[Bren]

What I am seeing so far is the following three 'rules' regarding Calling on the Dark Side and quadding.

(1) garhkal allows PC and NPCs, including Dark Siders, to Call on the Dark Side to quad, but as the GM he does not usually use Call on the Dark Side as an initial tactic and when used he has the NPC use the power in a dramatic, but less than optimal manner so as not to automatically kill the PCs - though there is still some danger and with bad rolls the NPC may still kill PCs.

(2) Grimace only allows characters who have not yet turned to the Dark Side (which essentially means only PCs) to Call on the Dark Side and quad. He uses quadding as a means of tempting those characters to the Dark Side, but once the character turns (which is likely to happen very quickly if they make a habit of quadding) they lose the ability to quad when calling on the Dark Side. So for most NPCs, Calling on the Dark Side is only a way to get extra or "free" FPs to use immediately.

(3) Several people have said they treat Calling on the Dark Side the same for those who have turned and for those who have not yet turned, but that they do not allow quadding by either. Calling on the Dark Side is thus a dramatic event but mechanically it's only use is to provide extra or "free" FPs for immediate use.

garhkal and Grimace have I correctly presented how you use Calling on the Dark Side and quadding?

Everyone, have I missed anything? Anyone else using a version of 'rule' (1) or (2)? Anyone do anything differently than one of these 'rules'?

[ZzaphodD]

I find FP:s / DSP:s problematic enough on their own, so would never combine them..
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course..

[Bren]

[garhkal]