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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:22 am Post subject: Capital punishment and PCs... |
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Got this question from dragonsfoot. While it was more to do with ad&d, it does also apply to other games..
First off. How many planets/systems in SW would you say actually USE a 'death penalty'? What form would it take?
Would it be publically shown or done in private??
Secondly, have any of your PCs done something that would warrent getting corporal punishment? AND GOTTEN Caught?
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Boomer
Captain
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 688
Location: Terra Sol
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:31 am Post subject: |
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Corporal Punishment is non-lethal, like a spanking.
Capital is the final judgment.
And I would say in Star Wars the full gamut of views on capital punishment is had, it all depends on which planet you are on.
The Empire had Capital punishment for just annoying authority figures and making the Empire look bad. And it wasn't publicized, only the judge and executioner's knew it happend and no one else was concerned. Got that from Pirates and Privateers. Should be more books with little blurbs on the subject.
But this thought does give the galaxy more depth, in a very important area when you consider the consequences of your actions in certain situations.
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KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Capital punishment and PCs... |
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| garhkal wrote: | | First off. How many planets/systems in SW would you say actually USE a 'death penalty'? |
Given the vastness of one galaxy( to quote Carl Sagaan, "billions and billions of stars), I would say there could be any number of worlds that support capital punishment. It should be especially common with the more primitive worlds, but does not nescessarily have to be limited to them. Industrial Age worlds and lower will most likely have capital punishment for local law, and certainly a feudal society would have such a thing (imagine a Jedi being seen as a sorcerer and burned at the stake). The nature of what crimes constitute capital offenses should vary wildley, as what is acceptable to some, is not acceptable to others, and this is where the real feeling of a vast universe comes in. One of the worlds I generated ended up being an Atomic Age theocracy in the outer rim, and there, blasphemy or heracy were capital crimes.
| Quote: | | What form would it take? |
Again, given the countless worlds we are talking about, the form of execution could be just about anything. Most likely varrying from world to world. Some might use simple beheadings, others might do ritualistic sacrifices, yet other might have vast gladatorial games where the condemmed fight to the death. There is such a wide range of possibilities to explore, and setting the execution method used by a local government or planetary culture could really set the mood and feel of the culture.
| Quote: | | Would it be publically shown or done in private?? |
Again, thisis another issue that would reflect individual governments. Surely, some cultures would believe a public execution would help deter others. And what good is a gladatorial game if no one is watching? There will certainly be other culture where the executions are most private, maybe for the sole enjoyment of the monarch or officials. On some worlds the executions could have a festive setting, to celebrate the death of a known criminal. On other worlds, the executions could be somber, because all life is revered, and they take no pleasure in what must be done.
| Quote: | | Secondly, have any of your PCs done something that would warrent getting corporal punishment? |
Yup. As a matter of fact, my current PC group is facing serious charges from the local planetary government. Should they get caught, one or more of them may be facing execution for treason, terrorism, murder, and inciting rebellion against the planetary government.
| Quote: | | AND GOTTEN Caught? |
In a few games I have had players get captured by Imperial forces, or crime organizations, and face the prospect of execution. It makes for interesting games, as what is more cinimatic or heroic than the bold rescue attempt?
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"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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Trusty
Commander
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 273
Location: North Little Rock, AR
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:46 am Post subject: |
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In my game it breaks down like this for support of Capital Punishment (of course, it also depends on the crime/offence).
100% of Imperial controlled planets.
65% ofRepublic controlled planets.
75% of Independent controlled planets.
The two reasons behind this are simple:
1. In a galaxy where war, battles, and death are common place whether it be galactic battles or bar fights, the value on life is certainly not very high in the galactic perspective overall and as a whole.
2. Hot-Button political issues make for great political/Senate BS storylines.
Now, the fun part is the manner in which the punishment is executed. That varies quite a bit as well. Whatever best suits the story. 
Corporal Punishment varies as well depending on the crime. One planet the PC's are going to in the next few sessions involves a prison break...and all the prisoners are frozen in carbonite and stacked to conserve room. 
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Argamoth
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say it mostly depends on the size and type of govornment. Big democracies, not likely. Small monarchies? You bet, if the king says so.
All depends on who's in charge. Though I'd bet the New Republic has some laws prevening trivial use of the death sentence. |
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Trusty
Commander
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 273
Location: North Little Rock, AR
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Argamoth wrote: |
All depends on who's in charge. Though I'd bet the New Republic has some laws prevening trivial use of the death sentence. |
Not likely. Only about 35%. Especially some of the more extreme non-human species and their backward cultures.
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Argamoth
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd think that the New Republic would at least try and get some kind of fair trial-type setup going, though. At least to prevent govornments from killing political dissenters. |
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Trusty
Commander
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 273
Location: North Little Rock, AR
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Argamoth wrote: | | I'd think that the New Republic would at least try and get some kind of fair trial-type setup going, though. At least to prevent govornments from killing political dissenters. |
They will try. But not every system/planet/culture in the New Republic is on the up and up by our "moral" standards in which we try to inpart onto the New Republic. That's what I love about the New Republic, especially in the latter EU books. It is the lesser of two evils. But it is STILL evil in a lot of ways.
Take Ugnaughts for instance. A peaceful people for the most part, but it is tradition (GG:2) that they kill one another for certain positions of status. Their culture does not see this as evil...who is the New Republic to come in and change their behaviour? See my point?
In the latter EU novels the Empire become a more tolerant Empire towards aliens. In our campaign, they don't believe their dictatorship is evil like the New Republic sees them as evil. Likewise, the Rebel Alliance was illegal and from the perspective of the Empire they were the evil ones stirring up lawlessness in the galaxy.
In our campaign (set 80 years after the events of ROTJ, though ours is an "infinities" campaign) of course the Empire is "evil", as they still allow slavery even though we play them as the more tolarent Empire. But that is how they came back, in our campaign, to control 35-40% of the known galaxy. A tolarent "alien-friendly" Empire who chooses order and rule of law over the corruption and not-always-civil disobedience of the New Republic (again, from their perspective). A re-worked deception that worked, but one that merely follows Darwin's theory with the most "strong" (evil, powerful Dark Lord of the Sith  ) sitting at the top. Our campaign is often filled with this kind of political ambiguity, forcing the PC's (and the players themselves) to really think their choices.
We do play what we call the "Sith Galactic Empire" as the "ultimate" "evil", and the New Republlic, with all of its many, many faults, as the"ultimate" "good"; but we're still playing idealogue verses idealogue. And if you paid attention to Episode III, you could see where Anakin could see the "dark" side as "good" and the "light" side as "evil". As with all things involving rational sentient lifeforms...the gray area is as vast and deep as the galaxy itself. Would Imperial law be quite so "ultamitely" "evil" if the dictator was a compassionate, life-loving Master Jedi like Yoda sitting at the top? With the abolishment of slavery as a lone exception, if the dictator was a nice peaceful Yoda-like fellow...what would be so wrong with the Empire and their laws (again though, they'd have to outlaw slavery to become tolerable by any standard)? But if the Empire outlawed slavery, would their form of government be any worse than the New Republic?
Is executing the dissenter for the greater good of the subject's obedience to the Laws any more or less totalitarian than taxing systems and using some of the money of wealthier systems to balance the wealth among the poorer systems of the New Republic for the greater good of all the subjects (except perhaps the wealthier ones)?
Perhaps this is why our characters in our campaign are so reluctant to choose sides.
Makes campaigns more fun and realistic when you have Imperial Commanders executing mindless orders and New Republic Senators arguing over mindless policy. And both doing less than "moral" acts and deeds in acheiving their interests.
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K_Feldspar
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 70
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I think here we need to remember life is not special in the Empire or in many places less 'civilized' either. We can find plenty of 'Wanted dead or alive' posters. These people have essentially been given the death sentence already. Few if any are actually convicted in absentia by a tribunal. Some bounty hunter will find them more convenient to deliver dead than alive unless there is some greater bonus to delivering them alive.
Should someone be brought in alive there might be some sort of trial for show purposes. The death sentence would be carried out in public, and would be whatever means would most frighten the public or amuse the government. Perhaps a local Moff enjoys watching his victims fight to the death with some local animal. Perhaps the official just is too busy for trivial things like that, and sends them before a firing squad. The stormies need the practice anyways. |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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This discussion got me thinking. In Ep4, Princes Leia was "scheduled to be terminated". If Luke and Co. hadn't rescued her, how do you think she would have been taken care of?
I doubt it would be Vader doing the killing, I think it would have been handled more "officially". |
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KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | This discussion got me thinking. In Ep4, Princes Leia was "scheduled to be terminated". If Luke and Co. hadn't rescued her, how do you think she would have been taken care of?
I doubt it would be Vader doing the killing, I think it would have been handled more "officially". |
I think her execution might have been handled quietly. As the imperial officer in the begining made clear, "Holding her is dangerous."
On the other hand, given the completion of the Death Star, the destruction of Alderaan, and the Empires new sense of power, they verry well may have made it a verry formal, verry public execution. Such as, "this is the fate of enemies to the empire" sorta thing.
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Endwyn
Commander
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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After vader talks to Leia on Tantive IV, he and an officer walk off. The conversation is basicly (not exactly):
Officer: "Holding her is dangerous. If word of this gets out it could generate sympathy for the rebelion in the senate."
Vader: "I've traced the rebel spies to her, now she is my only link to finding the rebel base."
Officer: She'll die before she tell you anything.
Vader: Leave that to me. Send a distress signal and then inform the senate that all abord were killed."
So, as far as the galaxy was concerned, Leia was already dead. Latter in the movie I believe the rebels on yavin tell her something to the effect of "We thought you were dead" or "when we got word of what happened to your ship"....soemthing like that.
Public exicution wouldn't be the best. The empire probably blamed pirates or hutts for the attack since the ship was obriting Tatooine....taking credit for the attack on a senate member and publicly killing her would only serve to generate sympathy for the rebelion's cause.
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Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Endwyn makes very good points. As far as the galaxy was concerned, Leia died on the initial attack on the Tantive IV, along with all her rebellious buddies. However I don't think the empire blamed the attack on the Tantive IV on pirates or whatever, I believe they accepted that it was their deed, a necessary action to protect the empire. Killing an entire ship full of rebels will generate much less revolt and sympathy for the rebellion than publicly executing a young, beautiful senator. "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic", said Stalin.
So I guess that if her execution after the destruction of the Death Star was carried out, it would be dealt with quietly, since she was already supposed to be dead. I still don't think it would be Vader's doing, however. Remember, she was "scheduled to be terminated", somehow I don't see Vader checking his palmtop to see who he's scheduled to terminate this afternoon. It sounds more like one of those torture droids would show up and finish its job. |
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Endwyn
Commander
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Although it would be funny to see a 2000 version of the movie remade....
[Vader and Obi-Wan are dueling, Vader's pager goes off]
V: I'm sorry; I really have to take this.
O: Vader, I came from half way across the galaxy for this!
V: You knew I had commitments when you came. Just because you flew across the galaxy doesn't mean I don't have obligations.
O: What could be more important than this?
V: I'm scheduled to kill a princess.
O: You're not the same person I dueled all those years ago. You were so passionate, so commited to killing me. I really feel the hate has left this relationship.
V: Well someone has to do something in the galaxy! We can't all just stay at home all day watching God knows what on the holonet.
O: What! You make it sound like I don't do anything. Who's gonna look after your son, who's gonna teach him, who's gonna make sure......oh yeah, um.............remember how you thought your son was dead? Well......
V: What? After all these years you tell me I have a son? You couldn't have brought this up sooner? You don't expect me to pay to support him do you? You never told me he lived, you never let him call me! I....I just can't take this right now......I have to go. I can't deal with this right now......I'm going to kill the princess. After that I'll feel better and we can finish this!
O: About the princess..........
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out. |
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KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Endwyn, that's just...awesome
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"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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