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Admiral Tolval
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Joined: 14 Feb 2012
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 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Look at Luke in Ep. IV. From the moment they left Tatooine until they arrived at Alderann, he studied under Ben. This was in game. But if we use the travel times than a week passed by  |
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Admiral Tolval wrote: | | Look at Luke in Ep. IV. From the moment they left Tatooine until they arrived at Alderann, he studied under Ben. This was in game. But if we use the travel times than a week passed by |
By the RAW only a few hours passed by. Which is why Luke doesn't have much in the way of force skills throughout the rest of the film, and why he has trouble even using TK to retrieve his lightsaber on Hoth.
Luke doesn't really get good with the Force until after he taught by Yoda, and even then Luke learns very quickly thanks to his family's affinity with the Force. |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | ...and even then Luke learns very quickly thanks to his family's affinity with the Force. |
Well that and the narrative constraints of the script.  |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ahhh.. The 'plot' thickens!
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | ...and even then Luke learns very quickly thanks to his family's affinity with the Force. |
Well that and the narrative constraints of the script. |
Well, if Luke was just some farm kid who was Force senstive, the films wouldn't make any sense. Whay would Obi-wan and Yoda bother to hid the children and then train them if the kids didn't have something special about them?
IMO, one of WEG7s slip-ups was in not making FORCE an attribute. Or at least have some way to differentiate between those who wield the Force other than thier skill die codes. |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | ...and even then Luke learns very quickly thanks to his family's affinity with the Force. |
Well that and the narrative constraints of the script. |
Well, if Luke was just some farm kid who was Force senstive, the films wouldn't make any sense. Whay would Obi-wan and Yoda bother to hid the children and then train them if the kids didn't have something special about them? |
But being special neither implies nor requires can learn new skills and abilities faster than other people. It may just mean - is fated to be the only one who can defeat Vader, or the Emperor, or both or has the potential to eventually be stronger than any Jedi before him.
The requirement to learn quickly is driven by the timing of the movie. Leia is captured and must be rescued. The Death Star is active and must be stopped. The audience is engaged in the action now and the action must not slow down to allow sufficient time for training. The reqjuirement for fast training is independent of Luke's specialness. |
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
But being special neither implies nor requires can learn new skills and abilities faster than other people. It may just mean - is fated to be the only one who can defeat Vader, or the Emperor, or both or has the potential to eventually be stronger than any Jedi before him. |
it might not even mean that. In the original trilogy all we know is that Anakin was very strong in the Force, as were his children; that those children could prove to be a threat to the Emperor and possible overthrow him. And it wasn't until ESB that we really learned just how special/important Luke was.
All the "Chosen One", and all the rest was added much later, but retroactively.
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The requirement to learn quickly is driven by the timing of the movie. Leia is captured and must be rescued. The Death Star is active and must be stopped. The audience is engaged in the action now and the action must not slow down to allow sufficient time for training. The requirement for fast training is independent of Luke's specialness. |
Movies. Not just Movie. Luke pretty much learns "all that he needs" from Yoda over a very short period of time. if we accept Lucas' pacing and speeds for hyperspace travel, ESB takes place over the course of afew days or a couple of weeks. And I agree that does seem to be driven more by the speed of the plot than by Luke's innate talent. But then we had nothing to compare Luke training to at the time. Luke was the only one we got to see get trained in the orginal trilogy. If Luke had taken years to train, he wouldn't have been of much use in the rest of the trilogy.
There does seem to be some support to the idea that it doesn't take so long for Jedi to learn Force skills and powers as indicated by the RAW. I think the time is mosre a matter of how long it takes for the Padawan to develpe the wisdom required to use those powers correctly. Still, nobody in the prequesl or other spin offslearn as fast as Luke does. So it is possible that his rapid mastery of the Force might be due at least somewhat to his innate affinity.
It's a bit of a problem as far as RPGing goes. Fast improvement, as least as far as Luke goes, seems to match up better with the films and the fast paced style of play, but rapid advancement is usually bad in a RPG and can really mess up a campaign.It's a tough balancing issue. The tough learning curve is one of the few things that make playing a Jedi a challenge in D6.
This reminds me of a rule in a Mecha-RPG where some characters start off as experienced, and have higher skills scores, while others start as novices with lower scores, but they can improve faster. That is exactly what seems to be going on in Star Wars. Han, Leia, Cheiw, and even the droids have all been around the galaxy a bit. Luke, on the other hand, is fresh of the farm, but he develops quickly. Perhaps that idea could be ported over to D6? |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | It's a bit of a problem as far as RPGing goes. Fast improvement, as least as far as Luke goes, seems to match up better with the films and the fast paced style of play, but rapid advancement is usually bad in a RPG and can really mess up a campaign.It's a tough balancing issue. The tough learning curve is one of the few things that make playing a Jedi a challenge in D6. |
Actually I think advancement like what we see in the films is workable in the RPG. As long as we look at what we see in the films from a certain point of view.
Luke learns quickly on film but relatively slowly off camera. In the 2 or 3 years between ANH and ESB Luke learns relatively little compared with how much he learns in the few days he spends with Obi-Wan or Yoda. Learning is fast, but stochastic rather than constant.
In our game, we allow characters to pre-spend points over time for things like Attribute increases or gaining Force skills. The character gradually accumulates enough points by spending a few here and a few there, while keeping their available CP total at a reasonable level.
One could do the same with Force skills. The character could spend CPs ahead of time in anticipation of finding a teacher. By spending the CPs ahead of time his training can go faster on camera as it were, just like Luke's - but at the cost of giving up those CPs early so they aren't available in an emergency. Thus you get a long period of no improvement, then a short period of rapid improvement tied to some in game/on camera event like spending time with a master. |
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jmanski
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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And that is probably the best explanation that fits what the rules give us.
Sometimes the movies just don't fit the rules (or vice-versa, depending on your point of view). Luke's training is fast, to be sure, but consider this: in ANH and early in TESB he uses the force several times. So his force skills may be higher than beginning level, but he just doesn't know any force powers to use them on.
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | Sometimes the movies just don't fit the rules (or vice-versa, depending on your point of view). Luke's training is fast, to be sure, but consider this: in ANH and early in TESB he uses the force several times. So his force skills may be higher than beginning level, but he just doesn't know any force powers to use them on. |
That's actually a good point jmanski.
We always figured Luke's CP awards were computed not on what he did in the films but based on the number of tickets sold. |
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jmanski
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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I had never thought of it that way... interesting!
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | I had never thought of it that way... interesting! |
That's been a stock trope in our group for a long, long time. It was developed in part to rationalize Luke's radical rate of increase compared to our characters relatively modest rate of increase. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | And that is probably the best explanation that fits what the rules give us.
Sometimes the movies just don't fit the rules (or vice-versa, depending on your point of view). Luke's training is fast, to be sure, but consider this: in ANH and early in TESB he uses the force several times. So his force skills may be higher than beginning level, but he just doesn't know any force powers to use them on. |
Yeah. And one thing that D20/SAGA seemed to have right was there there does seem to be a few Force Powers that are intuitive. Luke was "strong with the Force" long before he met Ben and went off to fight the Empire.
The difficulty is that, by the RAW, this is all handled with the Force skills. There is no operation between skill and effect the way there is with everything else. The RAW doesn't consider characters that are powerful but unskilled. |
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