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Jatrell
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Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 44
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 Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject: Jedi Training Questions |
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Hey all,
Little confused on something. First of all, on page 140 of the Core Rule book, it says that "a teacher must have atleast 3d force skill to be taught. The teachers skill must exceed the skill of the student to be taught." Now this is somewhat confusing and I am sure its a typo but need clarification. But on this same page it says you must spend 10 points and wait a week to learn one new skill. Now a player on my team has stated this is only if you don't have a master. This page doesn't say that however.
Last thing I have to know about is can someone tell me where it says how many force skills you start with being force sensative as a new character. I appreciate it guys
Jatrell
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Jedi Training Questions |
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I don't have my rules in front of me, but...
| Jatrell wrote: | | Little confused on something. First of all, on page 140 of the Core Rule book, it says that "a teacher must have atleast 3d force skill to be taught. The teachers skill must exceed the skill of the student to be taught." |
My interpretation is that the teacher must have a at least 3D in the force skill to be taught. In addition, the teacher's skill must exceed that of the student.
Examples:
(1) A character with Alter 2D+2 cannot teach another character the Alter skill.
(2) A character with Alter 3D can teach another Alter. But since the teacher's skill must exceed that of the student, she could only teach Alter to a student whose Alter is < 3D.
| Quote: | | But on this same page it says you must spend 10 points and wait a week to learn one new skill. |
I believe this is the rule for learning with a master. A character may not be able to learn a new force skill without a master - generally we have characters learn new force skills from a master. If a character is learning a new force skill without a master I would apply the same kind of rule as learning a force skill without a master - at least double the CP cost and time.
We actually house rule a variable cost for learning new force skills. The first new force skill learned (with a master) costs 20 CPs. The second skill costs 40 CPs. The third skill cost is 60 CPs. Mostly this is done to provide a bit of balance between templates that start with force skills (at a cost of lower attributes) and templates that start out with full attributes and no force skills. We set the cost of the new force skills to be a bit closer to the cost of raising attributes.
| Quote: | | Last thing I have to know about is can someone tell me where it says how many force skills you start with being force sensative as a new character. I appreciate it guys |
there has been some debate about that recently on another thread. My interpretation of the rules is that typically a character starts with 1 power for the first D of force skill plus one additional power for each pip of force skill above the first D. So a character with Control 2D and Sense 1D would typically start out with 1+3 Control powers and 1 Sense power.
Note that a power that uses both Control and Sense requires one Control power and one Sense power. |
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cheshire
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Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Jedi Training Questions |
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| Jatrell wrote: | Hey all,
But on this same page it says you must spend 10 points and wait a week to learn one new skill. Now a player on my team has stated this is only if you don't have a master. This page doesn't say that however.
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It is also my reading that this is when you have a master, but the cost of the first 1D is more expensive and takes more time to learn than additional pips.
| Quote: |
Last thing I have to know about is can someone tell me where it says how many force skills you start with being force sensative as a new character. I appreciate it guys
Jatrell |
Force SKILLS or Force POWERS? The Force skills are assigned as attributes during the first phase of character creation, but then you may add to them with skill dice. However, you cannot add skill dice to a Force skill unless you have already spent at least one attribute die on that skill.
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Jatrell
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Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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So does a Jedi have to spend the attribute points at the begininning of the game in order to have control sense and alter and if he does not, are you just SOL?
Sorry to be a bother but that last post threw me off a bit. Perhaps if you dont get all 3 force skills you get them as if you up a regular attribute? 10 times the number and soemthing else, dont remember and cant find it in the book
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Jatrell wrote: | | So does a Jedi have to spend the attribute points at the begininning of the game in order to have control sense and alter and if he does not, are you just SOL? |
You spend attribute points if you want the character to start out with force skills and powers. Take a look at the templates for the Force Users, e.g. Failed Jedi, Minor Jedi, Quixotic Jedi, Revwien Tyia Adept (which has a typo in the Templates PDF), or the Young Jedi (which has a typo in some versions).
Failed Jedi starts with Control at 1D and Sense at 1D plus whatever skill dice the player chooses to add. This costs 2D in attributes and as you will see, the Failed Jedi has 16D in attributes: DEX 2D+2, KNO 3D+1, MEC 2D, PER 3D+1, STR 2D+2, TEC 2D.
Revwien Tyia Adept starts with Control, Sense, and Alter at 1D plus whatever skill dice the player chooses to add. This costs 3D in attributes and as you will see, the Revwien has 15D in attributes: DEX 2D+1, KNO 3D+1, MEC 2D, PER 2D+1, STR 3D, TEC 2D.
Minor Jedi starts with Control at 1D plus whatever skill dice the player chooses to add. This costs 1D in attributes and as you will see, the Minor Jedi has 17D in attributes: DEX 3D, KNO 3D+2, MEC 2D, PER 3D+1, STR 2D+2, TEC 2D+1.
Quixotic Jedi starts with Sense at 1D plus whatever skill dice the player chooses to add. This costs 1D in attributes and as you will see, the Quixotic has 17D in attributes: DEX 3D+2, KNO 2D+1, MEC 2D+2, PER 3D, STR 3D, TEC 2D+1.
Young Jedi starts with Control, Sense, and Alter at 1D plus whatever skill dice the player chooses to add. This costs 3D in attributes and as you will see, the Young Jedi has 15D in attributes: DEX 3D, KNO 2D, MEC 2D, PER 4D, STR 2D, TEC 2D.
According to the RAW, you pay the cost listed in the rules for learning a new Force skill. It is assumed that you will need a teacher to learn a new Force skill and the teacher must have at least 3D in the skill she is trying to teach you.
According to the RAW, (1) if you are Force Sensitive and (2) if you have the CPs and (3) if you can find someone who has Force skills at 3D or higher and (4) if they are willing to train you and (5) if you take the time to learn the skill(s) then no you do not need to deduct attribute dice to have Force skills.
Which means from a min-max perspective, if time is not a factor, it is more power optimal to learn force skills rather than to take the attribute deduction. (That is part of why we house rule that characters either lose attribute dice or pay an increased CP cost for learning force skills after character generation. YMMV.)
I hope this helps clarify things. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Jatrell wrote: | So does a Jedi have to spend the attribute points at the begininning of the game in order to have control sense and alter and if he does not, are you just SOL?
Sorry to be a bother but that last post threw me off a bit. Perhaps if you dont get all 3 force skills you get them as if you up a regular attribute? 10 times the number and soemthing else, dont remember and cant find it in the book |
I think you may have misunderstood me. You treat it as an attribute at character creation only.
Suppose I have a Jedi with 1D in Control and 1D in Sense. Then two years later I want to learn Alter from a Jedi Teacher. That is when I spend the 10 CPs and the one week of training, then I have Alter at 1D.
I've made the following document for new players on character creation and advancement. It should cover your Force questions, (with the exception of learning a new force skill, I'll need to check to see if that is in there).
http://www.4shared.com/zip/PKQh3fdD/New_Player_Handout.html?
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Jatrell
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Joined: 16 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Cheshire, that is a huge help. I still need an nswer to how many force powers a jedi starts with and is it based on how many attributes you put into rolling a new character. Also when advancing force skills, do you pay char point cost as if it is a normal skill or is there another penalty? I know you cannot train without a master/holocron etc. I appreciate the trouble. Believe it or not, I understand this stuff, but my group constatly questions me and I need this in black and white to stop the constant arguements.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Jatrell wrote: | | Cheshire, that is a huge help. I still need an nswer to how many force powers a jedi starts with and is it based on how many attributes you put into rolling a new character. Also when advancing force skills, do you pay char point cost as if it is a normal skill or is there another penalty? I know you cannot train without a master/holocron etc. I appreciate the trouble. Believe it or not, I understand this stuff, but my group constatly questions me and I need this in black and white to stop the constant arguements. |
I think downloading this document will REALLY help you and your players.
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itsglobalbackerz
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Joined: 22 Dec 2011
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Location: Cebu, Philippines
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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I hope it would be easy questions .......
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Jatrell wrote: | | Cheshire, that is a huge help. I still need an nswer to how many force powers a jedi starts with and is it based on how many attributes you put into rolling a new character. Also when advancing force skills, do you pay char point cost as if it is a normal skill or is there another penalty? I know you cannot train without a master/holocron etc. I appreciate the trouble. Believe it or not, I understand this stuff, but my group constatly questions me and I need this in black and white to stop the constant arguements. |
Sorry for the turse reply earlier, I only had a limited time at that moment. Now let's see if we can put something more "in black and white."
There is no answer for how many Force powers you get for each attribute or starting skill dice you place into Force skills. That is pretty much always house ruled. I say that at character creation, you get two force powers for each attribute die you put into Force skills. Why? Because I'm arbitrary like that. All the Revised and Expanded rulebook (page 30) has to say on the matter is:
| Quote: | 4. Pick Force Powers
If your acharacter is Force-sensitive and starts with any of the three Force skills (control, sense or alter), your character knows at least one Force power. Turn to "the Force," and have the gamemaster help choose your character's beginning Force powers."
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Page 141 discusses learning Powers, but does not cover learning initial force powers.
Pages 140-141 state that there is no penalty unless you are studying without a teacher. That is to say you pay a number of character points equal to the number before the D. So a Jedi training from 3D to 3D+1 will pay 3 character points and study 6 day (two days per character point).
Training without a teacher doubles the CP cost.
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 793
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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RAW makes no mention of spending 7d skill dice on Force skills you've put Attribute dice in.
However newer templates use only attribute die for Force skills until gameplay begins, and they are not treated as skills for advancement outside of gameplay. So to start with 2D in Sense for example, you have to use 2d of attribute dice, you may not use 1d of attribute dice and then 1d of your starting skill dice. This is shown in the templates, although not mentioned in RAW.
So where I come down, according to me, RAW shows Force abilities may only be treated as or advanced as skills during gameplay. During the entirety of character creation they are always attributes for allocation purposes.
That way those templates make sense. The other way they do not and nobody would ever use them.
These templates are from more than one sourcebook too. |
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Crimson_red
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Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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Location: British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | | RAW makes no mention of spending 7d skill dice on Force skills you've put Attribute dice in. |
Page 28 2R&E, in regards to applying your 7D skill dice to a template:
"If a character has any of the Force skills — control,
sense or alter (they'll be listed under special abilities)
— you may improve them, but you cannot add these
skills to the template if they're not already listed."
And an example is given to that effect immediately afterwards.* The use of attribute dice is used while creating the template, while the application of the skill dice occurs when turning the template into a character. They are two separate stages of character creation (template creation and making changes), with slightly different concerns.
*EDIT: Correction, the example is unrelated to force skills, just the use of the 7D skill dice. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| Crimson_red wrote: | | vanir wrote: | | RAW makes no mention of spending 7d skill dice on Force skills you've put Attribute dice in. |
Page 28 2R&E, in regards to applying your 7D skill dice to a template:
"If a character has any of the Force skills — control,
sense or alter (they'll be listed under special abilities)
— you may improve them, but you cannot add these
skills to the template if they're not already listed." |
Thanks Crimson_red!  |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:45 am Post subject: |
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It makes me wonder if I should do a footnoted version of the character creation and advancement handout. That way you can reference the full rules in the R&E.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Jatrell wrote: | | Believe it or not, I understand this stuff, but my group constatly questions me and I need this in black and white to stop the constant arguements. |
Just reread this part.
Is that "questions me" as in, (i) hey Jatrell I we don't understand the rules for how Jedi PCs work - can you explain them again and maybe point us to where we can read it in the rules? or (ii) hey, Jatrell, we don't believe you, the GM, understand how Jedi PCs work and we don't believe you when you explain it to us, you need to show us exactly where that is in the rules?
If it is (i) pointing out the citation in the rules is helpful. If it is (ii) then a rules citation won't answer the real question which is a trust issue and trust issues require a compeltely different out of game discussion. |
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