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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Few questions (Semi Longish) |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | faus7rav3n wrote: |
- Burst Fire -
I would really like to implement something for this since I'd like to see usage of Burst Firing as support and suppression as well as increased lethality. The rules whipped up on the Rancorpit FileShare seem quite strong given that they produce an additional Die of damage for a 3 round burst with no penalty/modification for firing multiple shots per BAS. I'm up for debate on how to make this more difficult to pull off. Penalties are typically something affecting the character while modifiers change the circumstances of accomplishment. I think a modifier most accurately reflects what's happening. Would raising the difficulty to hit by a level make this more believeable? |
In terms of fire-linking or combined actions, a 1D bonus roughly represents a doubling of power, so I think that it's a reasonable damage bonus for a 3-round burst. The drawbacks are that burst fire uses ammo three times faster, and selective fire weapons are mostly illegal in the Empire, and draw a lot of attention. If you think that's not enough of a drawback, consider placing a limit on how many bursts a auto-firing gun can fire in a combat turn or two. Call it a function of heat-buildup over time. |
I add +1D to either damage or the 'to hit' roll for most automatic blasters. A light repeating blaster then has a basic damage level of 5D with a 1D Autofire Dice. There are some weapons with 2D Autofire, but those often cause slightly less damage. For each 1D autofire you use, 5 'shots' are consumed from the blaster pack.
In general I assume that automatic blasters use energy less effective than normal blaster weapons, and often have a shorter range (if they are not large and bulky repeaters).
But then I go the other way too, removing autofire. For example the sniper rebuild of an e-web. That weapon in the hand of a Storm Commando sniper put fear into the hearts of my players.. 
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | | combined RAW from all the sourcebooks, etc. is from a variety of very different contributors ranging from militarian to silly. The thing about an RPG is you can have a combat vet publishing new rules/material right alongside mongo the opium addicted lord of elfland, you can have one new set of rules based on firearms ballistics and the set beside it based on a care bears episode. |
Haha, and that Vet might come up with something like Phoenix Command. Sure realistic, but almost unplayable..
You dont have to get into the rules, but this link to a page of weapon stats (yes, ONE weapon) might give you a hint..
http://www.phoenixcommand.com/category/small-arms-data/squad-support-weapons-modern/
The rules actually give you the information exactly where the bullet stops in the body (if it doea). Is it lodged in the spine or stops in the liver... Very useful!
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Yasriia
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Joined: 15 Aug 2010
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| faus7rav3n wrote: | The +1D to damage has been a given this whole time. I didn't think that it needed repeating...(no pun intended). While there are alot of great ideas here I'll give you the breakdown on my thinking on penalties. Reasons have been given as to why the weapon can't/shouldn't do it, reasons to make it more difficult for the person and reasons to raise the difficulty.
Penalties affect the rolls by reducing skills.
- Physical problems like injury
- Sickness
- Dividing actions
Modifiers affect the rolls by adding to skills and/or adding to difficulties.
- Firing from an icy bridge in the standing position with a crosswind
- Rappelling down the side of a building with the right kit vs. with just a rope
- Having a medbay would modify the circumstances to First Aid.
Controlling a weapon on Burst and hitting your target with more than 1 shot is difficult. It doesn't make you any less skillful though. With that reason I think the difficulty code should be raised. In the grand scheme of things it has the same effect though, raising the difficulty by 1 level roughly equates to subtracting 1 die from skills. Still trying to do more with less. Someone dodging into cover would be harder to hit with a risky shot. The difficulty is harder but the reward is just as nice. Bursting multiple times in a round gets successively harder as you go. 2 Bursts gives you -1D AND a Difficulty increase. I think that is a pretty good limiting factor to prevent overuse/abuse.
With Burst the gun is firing successively doing the work for a single trigger pull, as opposed to a character single shotting 3 shots, controlling it is the hard part making the shot more difficult. With single shots a player is trying to line up each individual shot for best effect. You are taking the time to make the shots count thus the penalty for dividing your attention. You are doing the work, not the gun.
So I guess my next question would be...for what exactly do YOU, the GM, subtract dice? Examples would be great. |
I don't want to repeat me either, but actually I think you didn't understand me. As I understand the RAW, if you fire a blasterrifle with 5d damage on medium range, you have to beat a moderate difficulty. Your target can dodge (no full dodge) and then say 'Hey I got a 22. It's harder to hit me than your moderate roll.' So, if you just raise the difficulty by one, what do you do? Convert the 22 into very difficult and then raise it to heroic? I don't have the english wording at hand, but it's called rival or competitve rolls (?), like your to hit vs. his doge of 22.
Or is it easier to treat the burst as 2 action and apply a -1d, because of the multiple action penalty, to your to hit? And when you shoot 2 bursts in a round you actually have 4 actions and -3d to each to hit roll (as far as I got the RAW), which means, it gets really hard to hit something (3 bursts -5d and so on).
Then comes the tricky part. You need some gain on the other hand. You gain +1d to damage. So your blasterrifle with 5d now deals 6d damage.
Now lets compare it to a real repeater. The repeater is allways repeating and is doing 6d damage with no malus to hit. Lets get back to houseruling. I just take the ruling from Zaphod, which I allready adopted some months ago. With these rules the repeater does 5d damage and has 1d as autofire dice, which you can add to either the to hit roll or to the damage roll. So with both weapons you can do 5d damage (but the repeater gives you +1d to hit, the rifle does not). Or both weapons can have 6d damage (but the rilfe costs you another action - -1d to hit - the repeater not).
Now the funny question: Why should I use burstfire and not 2 or 3 singleshots with my blasterrifle? Well, because you have a higher damagecode. Against 5 ewoks I'll shoot them with singleshots. They are harder to hit, but don't soak that much damage. And 2 shots equals 2 action equals exactly -1d to hit like the burst, but gives you possibly 2 hits with 5d damage. Against a bantha I'll use burstfire. It's easy to hit but can take quite a punch (str=8d damagesoak vs 5d or 6d. Well with 6d you don't need that much luck).
If you don't like my idea come up with something better. And then tell us. But compare it to multiple single shots and repeaters and then get something in between, because everything needs a niche. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Though my burst fire rules are for firearms, they can be used for blasters.
Burst fire weapons are designed to spray a set number of bolts per trigger pull.. due to the number of bolts being fired, the kick adds +5 to the To Hit number needed (opponents dodge if he reacts, or range otherwise), but if you DO hit, you add 1d damage.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Though my burst fire rules are for firearms, they can be used for blasters.
Burst fire weapons are designed to spray a set number of bolts per trigger pull.. due to the number of bolts being fired, the kick adds +5 to the To Hit number needed (opponents dodge if he reacts, or range otherwise), but if you DO hit, you add 1d damage. |
Ok, in moste cases autofire is just supression.
But in close encounters firing lots of bullets will give you a highter chance of scoring a hit. If you center on target good enough several hits, which means more damage.
Isnt the penalty to hitting a bit weird then?
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| faus7rav3n wrote: | Missed Vanir's post. I like the house rule. Don't get me wrong. I'm not averse to changing any rule I dislike. I'm just trying to find a parity between systems in a way that I think is cool. Still thinking I might allow Limited Burst Fire from Main Line Blasters like the Blastech E11 or Sorosuub 1, reasoning that sustained autofire is outside of possibility given the amount of cooling required on the Light Repeaters.
How does this sound:
Using Burst Fire from a Blaster Rifle counts as a Basic Action. Due to the heat generated by consecutive Bursts it is inadvisable to Burst Fire more than 3 times consecutively. Weapon malfunction range increases to 1-2 on the Wild Die at the 3rd Burst. Increases again to 1-3 at 4th. 1-4 at 5th. If the player is gutsy or dumb enough to push it beyond 4 he/she deserves an explosion in hand.
I think that gives it some use but downsides as well.
Just tossing some ideas around here. Nothing set in stone yet. |
I like this but it sounds to me like a custom blaster modification. Work it like this, as a Player reward system.
Give the Player some freedom in the specific details of a burst fire function to his E-11 blaster rifle say. Then have him pay a character point cost, make a blaster repair roll, decide some components and credit cost required and it gains the benefits you've described or thereabouts, with unlucky wild die causing mishaps rolled on the mishaps table. |
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:20 am Post subject: Re: Few questions (Semi Longish) |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | A light repeating blaster then has a basic damage level of 5D with a 1D Autofire Dice. |
I always figured a single bolt from a light repeater should do 6D damage. The stormtrooper 1 and blastech E-11 have autofire settings in most novels and games, and the light repeater has the bore diameter of a freakin' leaf blower! 
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | Though my burst fire rules are for firearms, they can be used for blasters.
Burst fire weapons are designed to spray a set number of bolts per trigger pull.. due to the number of bolts being fired, the kick adds +5 to the To Hit number needed (opponents dodge if he reacts, or range otherwise), but if you DO hit, you add 1d damage. |
Ok, in moste cases autofire is just supression.
But in close encounters firing lots of bullets will give you a highter chance of scoring a hit. If you center on target good enough several hits, which means more damage.
Isnt the penalty to hitting a bit weird then? |
it is representing the recoil.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | Though my burst fire rules are for firearms, they can be used for blasters.
Burst fire weapons are designed to spray a set number of bolts per trigger pull.. due to the number of bolts being fired, the kick adds +5 to the To Hit number needed (opponents dodge if he reacts, or range otherwise), but if you DO hit, you add 1d damage. |
Ok, in moste cases autofire is just supression.
But in close encounters firing lots of bullets will give you a highter chance of scoring a hit. If you center on target good enough several hits, which means more damage.
Isnt the penalty to hitting a bit weird then? |
it is representing the recoil. |
Not wishing to start the big blaster recoil debate agin, I'll just point out that the recoil doesn't impact the first shot's accuracy, so a -5 penalty, (higher than the expected value of 1D) is too much. I could see a burst reasonably doing +1D damage if you hit by 5 or more, though.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Few questions (Semi Longish) |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | A light repeating blaster then has a basic damage level of 5D with a 1D Autofire Dice. |
I always figured a single bolt from a light repeater should do 6D damage. The stormtrooper 1 and blastech E-11 have autofire settings in most novels and games, and the light repeater has the bore diameter of a freakin' leaf blower! |
I was working from the RAW here. A light repeater is assumed to be automatic even in the RAW. What differs a LRB from a Blaste Rifle? Range and damage, nothing else really. Where does the autofire come in if not in the RAW damage? So, take one damage dice which represent autofire and convert it into a autofire dice. This makes the weapon more powerful as you now can choose to add that die either to damage or the 'to hit' roll..
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Few questions (Semi Longish) |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | the light repeater has the bore diameter of a freakin' leaf blower! |
Ah, and this fits my view of 'automatic' blasters rather well. The 'leaf blowing' part you are mentionign is actually the air cooling barrel of the Lewis Light MG from WWI. This is how I view automatic blasters as well, they become cumbersome because of the cooling.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | Though my burst fire rules are for firearms, they can be used for blasters.
Burst fire weapons are designed to spray a set number of bolts per trigger pull.. due to the number of bolts being fired, the kick adds +5 to the To Hit number needed (opponents dodge if he reacts, or range otherwise), but if you DO hit, you add 1d damage. |
Ok, in moste cases autofire is just supression.
But in close encounters firing lots of bullets will give you a highter chance of scoring a hit. If you center on target good enough several hits, which means more damage.
Isnt the penalty to hitting a bit weird then? |
it is representing the recoil. |
Not wishing to start the big blaster recoil debate agin, I'll just point out that the recoil doesn't impact the first shot's accuracy, so a -5 penalty, (higher than the expected value of 1D) is too much. I could see a burst reasonably doing +1D damage if you hit by 5 or more, though. |
Again, not talking about the recoil question. But the idea of autofire is to have a larger chance of hitting, no causing more damage (which is rarely needed). Therefore a general penalty to hit seems a bit off. Im aware that autofire is rather ineffective over distance though.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: |
Not wishing to start the big blaster recoil debate agin, I'll just point out that the recoil doesn't impact the first shot's accuracy, so a -5 penalty, (higher than the expected value of 1D) is too much. I could see a burst reasonably doing +1D damage if you hit by 5 or more, though. |
No its not impacting the first shot as much, but with auto fire/burst fire, you are shooting more than 1 shot at a time... ergo recoil will factor in.
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faus7rav3n
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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I think I might have opened a can of worms here. The definitions of what we are talking about isn't quite as well defined here.
Burst Fire is the act of putting 3 rapid fire, controlled shots on an enemy.
Autofire is the act of filling the air with shots in the hopes to hit but with the ultimate goal of suppression.
Different functions of the same feature. Given how easy it is to add to your blaster skill with bipods, scopes and stocks, reducing a player's die code and adding a to the difficulty is functionally the same. You are subtracting a possible six or adding a six on the other end. Obviously there is a sliding scale to that next level, you could put it on the low end of the next difficulty so a 16, or you could put it on the higher end like a 20. The option is yours.
The way I see it, Burst Fire and Autofire are a strategic use attack. Threaten someone with a well placed Burst and they MIGHT end up full dodging out of the round, so your allies can have one less blaster trained on them. Use a heavy barrage of Autofire for suppression and reduce enemy die codes by 2 or 3 dice to make the possibility of hitting lower.
We'll see what happens. I'll introduce both methods to the table to see what the players think. |
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