Creating a System of Jedi Ethics

[vanir]

[Bren]

[vanir]

a point I was trying to allude was Star Wars residing quite at the point where romanticism departs philosophy.
western philosophy is as complicated and almost entirely analoguous to oriental, when we're talking about bad guys in black hats we're dealing with romanticism, certainly a populist conception of the rennaissance but hardly an accurate one of the period.

The main difference between romanticism and philosophy is one doesn't know it's a horror movie and the other is insightful dystopia.

there are fortunately enough dystopic references in Star Wars to inspire some philosophical leaning, but they're predominantly pop references and not in any way obscure, deep contemplation. America, especially in the 70s always had a hard on for the holocaust so there's no surprises in stormtroopers or an evil, technologically advanced galactic empire there.

Jedi are analoguous to samurai and act more monk-like than sports-jock so again there's no surprises there.

pop culture, not philosophy.

[Whill]

[Bren]

[Whill]

[Bren]

I see the films as primarily entertainment framed in the structure of myth. I don't take them as attempting to create a sacred narrative nor as actually attempting to cover what Campbell defined as the four basic functions of myth.

(1) The Mystical Function—experiencing the awe of the universe - seems a possible aim of hte films, though as awesome as that Star Destroyer flying overhead was in the summer of 1977, I don't find that awe of the universe is a feeling I come away with from the films.

(2) The Cosmological Function—explaining the shape of the universe. I think this is unlikely. Lucas intentionally casts in a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away which removes the films from describing our galaxy here, and now. Nor do I think that Lucas was intending to protray the Force as real in any ontological sense.

(3) The Sociological Function—supporting and validating a certain social order. This may be possible if the anti-technological, anti-republican, pro-inherited power themes are supposed to tell us something about a desired social order. But, David Brin's essays aside, I don't seriously think Star Wars is intending to support or validate an alternate social order to that of the democracy/republican politics that Lucas grew up with. Perhaps George, much like Plato, favors rule by enlightened despots.* But if so, I find it difficult to consider Star Wars a serious attempt to persuade people to favor despotic government over existing representative governments.

(4) The Pedagogical Function—how to live a human lifetime under any circumstances. Lucas may be trying to say something here, and certainly there are some that favor pop culture cliches that seem to believe that - here, here, and here. I just don't find that more compelling than the wisdom of Lord of the Rings or the wisdom of Raymond Chandler.

Let's say I really, really enjoy the movies and the game universe and I want the game universe that I play in to make sense and resonate for me (and hopefully for others) and leave it at that.

* "But there's probably no better form of government than a good despot." -- George Lucas (New York Times interview, March 1999)

[JT Swift]

Its worth noting the Campbell states again and again that you can't PLAN to create a myth. That all myths evolve into existence by accident (or by holy design depending on your POV).

So [if we are using Campbell's rules] the fact that George wasn't TRYING to create a myth has no bearing on whether Star Wars is or is not a true myth.

The application of his 4 Functions is a useful test, but only if applied to the audience and not the writer.

(1) The Mystical Function - it does show how a single human individual can still be relevant in a universe of thousands of inhabited star systems.

(2) The Cosmological Function - while mostly failing at this its science is still WAY better then any mythology of the past.

(3) The Sociological Function - It does show one how to live in a time of civil war. And set some criteria about when to have a civil war. But I don't think anyone looks at it this way. So fail.

(4) The Pedagogical Function - Despite my mom's obsession with Christianity during my childhood, I always found the ethics/philosophy of the Jedi [as presented in the classic trilogy] to be immensely helpful and comforting while passing through the various stages of life. So for me, yes it worked like gangbusters here.

But to be a true living myth it needs to be relevant to very large numbers of people, not just me. I don't have the data to support or disprove that.
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[Whill]

Great discussion guys
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[faus7rav3n]

I noticed a few references to Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. There are several other religions possessing doctrines that are quite similar to the Jedi order.

Jainism - which is basically asceticism and non-violence. Reverence for all things living. Had a hierarchy of life in the cosmos. (All things are part of the Force)

Buddhism - Follows the 8 Fold Path which is VERY similar to the Jedi's code. Accepting that there are a great many things in the world that are unchangeable. Fear and Angst come from attachment to objects and people.

Hinduism - which has doctrines of living according to dharma and your own code. Action is necessary, providing you act with honor and dignity you adhere to your own code. It's easy to extend the code to more people.

Just a thought. Awesome discussion! Love it!

[Fallon Kell]

[Bren]

[Volar the Healer]

Real World:
I enjoy studying religions. You can't really understand someone from another culture unless you understand the basics of their religion. But the biggest mistake I see Earth religions make is "making up more rules". The Lord gave us only ten commandments because it is enough. If you can't figure out what to do from those ten it's because you're not trying. Humanity doesn't need more rules; it needs to study the principles the rules are based on until it understands them.

Star Wars:
Same for the Jedi. If a character can't figure out what to do from the Jedi code, he shouldn't be a Jedi. In Star Wars, good and evil are obvious. I think your overcomplication of the Jedi code produces nothing but confusion. And confusion is of the dark side.

I don't like your "Jedi ethics" because it wasn't in the Star Wars movies. I took philosophy classes in college (and obviously so have you), but instantly recognized them as babbling nonsense not based in reality. I guess I don't want that kind of psudo-intellectualism in the game. We could argue forever (which seems to be the only purpose of modern philosophy), but what would that add to the game? Just two examples: "The Force values life". Really!? Then why is there death? Your "Jedi ethics" doesn't answer that question anywhere because it can't...just like modern philosophy can't. "Jedi should act in harmony with the force." This is psudo-intellectual babbling. If I concentrate all of my hate then use it to force lightning my enemy, I AM acting in harmony with the force - the dark side of the force, but the force nonetheless. All of your statements are a priori assumptions. None are logical deductions. That makes your whole "Jedi ethics" meaningless, just like modern philosophy, which sounds good to the uneducated, but has no reality.

Please forgive me. We all have a pet peeve. Psudo-intellectualism is mine. [makes a willpower roll to control anger] Let's talk about something more real - like how many amps does a lightsaber consume per minute?
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Know Jesus, Know Peace.
No Jesus, No Peace

[Bren]

[garhkal]

Actually that would be watts...
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