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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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 Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | Very true, but the EU does address the idea that "mere mortals" can't manufacture a lightsaber with the same degree of skill and precision as a Jedi. Even if it is as simple as the Jedi using Concentration during the construction process, there is still something more of the Force involved than one might see in a mass-produced blaster or vibro-sword.
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I seem to recall Brakiss mass-producing lightsabers on an assembly line, and as I understood, a "mortal" could make just as good a lightsaber as a Jedi, it's just that only a Jedi could make sure his lightsaber wouldn't catastrophically explode without warning the first time it's activated.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Reference?
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Gamer
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Well somebody was making them for the separatists during the war, with the various droids weilding lightsabers such as the IG-110 lightsaber droids having 2 each.
There's no way any dark jedi or sith is going to just sit around making the darn things for all those droids and nobody builds various models of droids whose weapons availability is dependant on an enemy getting killed for it first. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | The devil is in the details. For starters, lightfoils inflict less damage (3D or 4D instead of 5D) |
Which I assume was caused by the fact that they are smaller weapons. Just like many game systems give less damage to a fencing foil than to a larger sword. Also, the Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook included Jedi Lightsabers that did 4D damage (actually IIR it had a range of damages from 4D - something like 5D+2 depending on the type of crystal used). So I did read the lesser damage as being due to an inability to create a better lightsaber.
| Quote: | | ...and short out on a Wild Dice failure, requiring two hours and a moderate Lightsaber Repair roll. Since lightsabers inflict more damage (via increased energy output) and do not short out when used, it is reasonable to assume that they are constructed with greater skill and precision. Plus, I think it adds to the mystique of the Jedi that a "true" lightsaber can only be constructed by a Jedi using the Force, and that all others are inferior copies at best. |
I agree the shorting out does indicate a design flaw. Though I assumed that was in part due to the requirement to create the lightfoils secretly since the are illegal weapons even in Tapani and that the craft of lightfoil making was a bit of a lost art.
But even I don't find that rationale fully satisfying since there is less than a full generation between the Jedi Purge and the Rebellion period (which I think is when the Tapani book is set) and that just doesn't give that much time for lightfoild construction to become a lost art. I don't recall the detals of the timeline for the Tapani Sector, maybe some time could be added due to the rise and fall of the various houses. I suppose the Empire could persecute and put the lightsmiths out of business.
Bottom line, I think a weapon that does less damage in most hands than a vibrodagger, that shorts out 1 round in 6, and is highly illegal to boot is a bit silly even for crazy neer-do-well younger nobles. And I'd rather the weapon is useful because I think there are a lot of dramatic possibilities and Three Musketeer type action that can be had from running into a bunch of honor obsessed, younger son lightfoild equipped saber rakes.
Were I running something in Tapani I'd want using a lightfoil to be cool rather than just stupidly risky so I would do the following:
(1) leave the wild die malfunction to 1/36 tops - i.e. confirm the 1 with a second 1;
(2) assume the malfunction is only for blades not kept in good repair or made by some of the less knowledgeable practitioners of this more decadent age and that older blades that are kept in good repair do not malfunction;
(3) set the minimum damage for any lightfoil at 4D with the older, better blades at 4D+1 or 4D+2;
(4) assume some houses retain heirloom full size blades that do 5D damage;
(5) allow skilled practitioners who are not Jedi to increase their damage based on exceeding the to hit number similar to optional rules for blasters, e.g. +1 damage for every 5 points over the to hit number.
To my mind, the Jedi damage add for LS Combat ensures that a lightsaber in the hands of a true Jedi will still be sufficiently special. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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The Saber Rake phenomenon only came into existence after the end of the Clone Wars, so there wasn't a lot of time available for a tradition of bladecrafters to come into being. The history of the Tapani Sector states that one of the houses had a strong tradition of support for the Jedi (and several Jedi came from their ranks). After the Clone Wars, the Empire crushed this house rather thoroughly, and they have fallen from power considerably. Subsequently, young nobles from one of the other houses somehow happened upon a cache of lightsabers hidden by House #1 and began carrying them in public, creating quite a stir, and attracting the attention of the Empire's Jedi hunters. The situation eventually evolved into the Saber Rakes of the Classic Era in the Tapani Sector.
There was not a lot of time there to develop a tradition of bladecrafting. Indeed, most lightfoils probably are a result of reverse engineering of the original recovered lightsabers, with new lightfoils being constructed by a person who does not fully understand the intricacies of the device he is constructing, and who does not possess the technical aptitude necessary to make a properly functioning blade.
The only lightsaber construction mentioned in the EU makes lightsaber construction seem just as much a meditative exercise as a construction project, with the Jedi requiring a range of skills and abilities to successfully construct the lightsaber. If you want to have lightsabers in your universe be mundane items, that's your universe, but it seems awfully mundane to me, especially in the face of what is available in the EU.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | The history of the Tapani Sector states that one of the houses had a strong tradition of support for the Jedi (and several Jedi came from their ranks). After the Clone Wars, the Empire crushed this house rather thoroughly, and they have fallen from power considerably. Subsequently, young nobles from one of the other houses somehow happened upon a cache of lightsabers hidden by House #1 and began carrying them in public, creating quite a stir, and attracting the attention of the Empire's Jedi hunters. The situation eventually evolved into the Saber Rakes of the Classic Era in the Tapani Sector. |
Yeah, that was the House that starts with the letter 'P' - I never thoroughly read the Tapani stuff since I hoped that my co-GM would run it for my character. Sounds like less effective blades makes sense from what you mentioned.
| Quote: | | The only lightsaber construction mentioned in the EU makes lightsaber construction seem just as much a meditative exercise as a construction project, with the Jedi requiring a range of skills and abilities to successfully construct the lightsaber. If you want to have lightsabers in your universe be mundane items, that's your universe, but it seems awfully mundane to me, especially in the face of what is available in the EU. |
I only recall the Radio Play version of Luke constructing his lightsaber in Old Ben's hut on Tatooine. Given his score in lightsaber repair, I'm kind of surprised at how much difficulty he had. 
That seems perfectly appropriate for how a Jedi would make a lightsaber. I just interpret the need for meditation to be the Star Wars equivalent of the Chivalric Knight-to-be staying up all night praying before he is knighted. It's not that you have to do that to construct a lightsaber, it's just that Jedi training wants you to think seriously about what it means to be a Jedi and what it means to carry (and use) the weapon of a Jedi knight. I don't really like the magic sword version of lightsabers. The force powers like LS Combat and Danger Sense add enough "magic" to the mix for me so I am fine with the actual sabers being mundane. Given the number of saber weilding cyborgs and clones we see in the Clone Wars novels and shows mundane is seeming very reasonable now.
But if you want lightsabers to be more special - that's fine too.  |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going for a more open combat method for Jedi, eliminating Lightsaber Combat as a power and moving most of a Jedi's combat abilities to an expanded Combat Sense power (there is canon evidence to support Jedi being effective with non-lightsaber weaponry, such as an electrostaff, a blaster pistol, starfighter combat, and even unarmed). I can't remember which forum member suggested it, but he proposed a variant which eliminated the Control bonus to damage, then turned the straight 5D damage to Lightsaber to Str+5D with no cap. Granted, I haven't had much time to playtest this new method (nor will I for the foreseeable future, as I am starting a new job doing long haul trucking), but it looks promising. A major advantage from removing the Control bonus is it eliminates some of the more ridiculous examples of Vader or Yoda being able to destroy a Death Star-scale target with one slice of a lightsaber...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | A major advantage from removing the Control bonus is it eliminates some of the more ridiculous examples of Vader or Yoda being able to destroy a Death Star-scale target with one slice of a lightsaber... |
But Chewiee doing more damage with a lightsaber than Luke just seems...odd.
I don't see a lightsaber as a STR-based weapon. I'll stick with modifying LS combat to use 1/2 the Control skill as a damage add. That change moves Vader down to 10D+2 damage or 16D+1 damage when using a FP and Vader is one of the most powerful Jedi around.
With your STR+5D change, Chewiee with a lightsaber would do 10D damage or 15D damage when using a FP...as a Padawan. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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That's when the optional damage rules from RoE come into play. Chewie may have the raw strength to inflict more damage than Luke, but Luke has a much higher level of experience with the weapon, so even if he got to add 1 point of damage for every five points of Lightsaber success (and Sense success, most likely), he would surpass Chewie's brute strength with surgical precision and intimate knowledge of his weapon of choice.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | That's when the optional damage rules from RoE come into play. Chewie may have the raw strength to inflict more damage than Luke, but Luke has a much higher level of experience with the weapon, so even if he got to add 1 point of damage for every five points of Lightsaber success (and Sense success, most likely), he would surpass Chewie's brute strength with surgical precision and intimate knowledge of his weapon of choice. |
Would he?
To hit with a lighsaber is at least difficult, so call that a 20. I don't have Luke's stats handy, but IIR he was a bit weaker than Vader in ESB and RotJ, so let's call that 11D lightsaber and 11D sense. Rolling 22D gives an expected value of 77 - 20 = 57 which gives by RoE a bonus of 11 points. So Luke does 5D+3D+11=39 pts damage. (Here I ignored any MAPs for Luke using force powers or any other actions).
Chewiee does 5D + 5D =35 pts damage. Not a lot worse than Vader assuming no bonus from RoE.
With a FP Luke rolls 154 - 20 = 134/5 = 26 pts extra damage for a total of 5D+6D+26 pts = 65 pts. (Note that 26 points of damage are due to precision, 18 pts are due to the lightsaber itself, and 21 points of Luke's damage are due to his brute STR.)
With a FP Chewiee rolls 5D + 10D = 53 pts (plus using a FP Chewiee would presumably exceed the 20 difficulty and gain a few more points from the RoE rules).
So one of the most powerful Jedi surpasses (but not by much unless he uses a FP) a high STR novice or padawan. That's that problem I see with the mod. To me it doesn't fit the poetic description of a lightsaber as an elegant weapon. But if you like it, go for it. |
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Esoomian
High Admiral
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say I'm with Bren on this one. I just can't wrap my head around a lightsaber that has a blade with no mass doing damage based on strength.
I'm pretty sure I remember the thread that raised this recently but not exactly what it was called. As I said in that thread I prefer lightsabers to be the ultimate finesse weapon doing damage on how well they hit not on how hard you can swing them.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Lightsabers are generally described as having a "kick" or oscillation effect that causes the blade to push back against the wielder. This works as an feasible explanation for me as to why a stronger character would inflict more damage: because they have the strength to push against the blade's kick.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Lightsabers are generally described as having a "kick" or oscillation effect that causes the blade to push back against the wielder. This works as an feasible explanation for me as to why a stronger character would inflict more damage: because they have the strength to push against the blade's kick. |
Then Leia swinging her lightsaber like a pendulum on the end of a rope to damage the Nohgri shuttle on Kashyyyk (courtesy of Mr. Zahn) should have done much less damage since the STR exerted by the weight of a swinging light saber's got to be pretty low and should have been counteracted by the theoretical "kick.".
Basing lightsaber damage is just too Conan the Jedi for my tastes, but to each his own. I like STR being a viable Jedi dump stat. |
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Esoomian
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Even with the 'kick' it just doesn't work for me as the lighsaber is still not doing damage based on mass+velocity it seems to be doing damage based on the amount of surface area it contacts and the length of time it contacts said surface area.
In my mind using a stronger swing (IE swinging the lightsaber faster) is going to result in less damage as the blade is going to be in contact with the target for less time.
That said if that is what is going to work for you then go for it but to me it changes the nature of what a lightsaber is and it should probably be just another melee weapon without having it's own skill.
[Edit] I believe this thread is the thread where we argued for/against Lightsabers having a Strength + whatever damage rating.[/Edit]
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Then Leia swinging her lightsaber like a pendulum on the end of a rope to damage the Nohgri shuttle on Kashyyyk (courtesy of Mr. Zahn) should have done much less damage since the STR exerted by the weight of a swinging light saber's got to be pretty low and should have been counteracted by the theoretical "kick.". |
But under either set of rules (the RAW or my proposed alteration), the damage done would still be a base of 5D. Leia wouldn't have been able to add her Control to damage since she was surrendering physical control of the weapon by throwing /dropping it. She might've been able to add her Alter skill to damage if she had been using TK to control the saber's arc, but there is no evidence in the novel to suggest that she did. Conversely, using the alternate rule, she wouldn't have been able to add her Strength to the roll because all she was doing was dropping the saber while it was attached to a vine (unless she threw it to impart additional momentum, which also does not seem to be the case). It's possible that the added momentum of the swing imparted additional damage either way, but if we are using 2R&E scale rules, that speeder must've had a pretty weak Body Strength rating for her to tak it out so easily.
Unless there is another explanation.
| Quote: | | Basing lightsaber damage is just too Conan the Jedi for my tastes, but to each his own. I like STR being a viable Jedi dump stat. |
It still is. Even with a Strength of 2D, the lightsaber still inflicts 7D damage, and that's before you add in whatever damage bonus you choose from the To Hit roll.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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