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MasterKazur
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 107
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 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Meh... I'd treat a double bladed lightsaber as an entirely separate skill. Since you can't "specialize" in lightsaber, why should you get to specialize in a more powerful variant and pay less to advance the skill?
How I handle it is like this: The user can either make one extra attack with no MAP on the attacks (still counts as two actions for other skills' MAPs); OR can make an attack and a parry with no MAP (still counts as two actions for other skills). The difficulty is very difficult (often 25 or higher). The normal risk of hitting yourself is present. |
Sure you can specialize in lightsaber. The same way you can specialize in blaster (fx. heavy blaster) and pay less to advance in a more powerful variant. Why should the rules for lightsaber be any different?
But I like your idea of no MAP for the first actions in a round and the DC of Very Difficult... I think these are the rules I'll be going with. |
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schnarre
Commander
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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...Overall I think double-ended Lightsabers are over-rated from the onset (the Darth Maul craze mainly, but even Exar Kun only employed one to fight his former master--sticking to regular Lightsaber even in his fight with Ulic Qel-Droma)!
...Having done historical reenacting for some time, I can say from personal experience that double-ended weapons are decent for defense & counter moves, but they are horrible when one tries to attack with them. That Kenobi decapitated one of Grievous' droids with considerable ease in Episode 3 did not surprise me in the least.
...For a double-ended Lightsaber for the Maul-wannabe I would say a +1D on parrying Melee/Lightsaber attacks, with a single counterstrike without MAP if the defender makes his defense roll by a margin of at least 16-20 (Difficult-range of difficulty), & a -1D on attack rolls (limited areas of attack, & pretty obvious when they're coming in). If one insists on using such a weapon, make sure they've got Telekinesis & a very high Alter & use it as a whirling "sawblade" hurled at the enemy.
...For a staff-style of weapon, I would say that the user gains a +1D on attack rolls due to the added reach--opponents needing a Move action to close, unless they're using similar weaponry as well--but halve their skill, round up, if the opponent has them in gladius-range, or in restricted space (like a room that's only 10' square)...& look out for that foe with the cortosis-woven shield or personal shield generator.
...My 2 creds worth anyway!
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16345
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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All good points. My thing is, despite all of the practical reasons why a light-staff would not make a truly effective weapon, it does pass the main litmus test for inclusion in the SWU; it looks cool. For a good in-universe treatment on the strengths and weaknesses of double bladed sabers, read pages 150-152 of Darth Bane: Path of Destruction.
Personally, I like the idea of a multi-mode lightstaff where the double blade is one of several options:
-Regular lightsaber with an extra-long handle
-Double-bladed saber
-Dual sabers (lightstaff hilt splits into two separate sabers)
-Dual setting lightsaber (only available when the hilts are joined, good for added range in melee combat, as well as for vehicle or beast mounted combat).
The Jedi would wield a single weapon and be able to shift between them at the press of a button, depending on which weapon is more effective in combat.
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| MasterKazur wrote: |
Sure you can specialize in lightsaber. The same way you can specialize in blaster (fx. heavy blaster) and pay less to advance in a more powerful variant. Why should the rules for lightsaber be any different?
But I like your idea of no MAP for the first actions in a round and the DC of Very Difficult... I think these are the rules I'll be going with. |
Well, I was referring to the RAW for lightsaber... since at the time there was only one kind. Still, if it's going to be allowed for a double bladed lightsaber, would it be allowed for a standard lightsaber? I dunno... just sounds weird to me...
But, I'm glad I could contribute an idea that you find useful. |
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MasterKazur
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | MasterKazur wrote: |
Sure you can specialize in lightsaber. The same way you can specialize in blaster (fx. heavy blaster) and pay less to advance in a more powerful variant. Why should the rules for lightsaber be any different?
But I like your idea of no MAP for the first actions in a round and the DC of Very Difficult... I think these are the rules I'll be going with. |
Well, I was referring to the RAW for lightsaber... since at the time there was only one kind. Still, if it's going to be allowed for a double bladed lightsaber, would it be allowed for a standard lightsaber? I dunno... just sounds weird to me...
But, I'm glad I could contribute an idea that you find useful. |
I see what you mean about being able to specialize in a regular lightsaber. I guess in theory you could, since there are now so many different types of lightsabers ect...
I does seem kinda weird, but not really i guess.
Lightwhip was a seperate skill, but thats a far cry from a lightsaber anyway. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe specializations in Single, Double, and Double-bladed? Of course, it could be that there are no specializations allowed in lightsaber because no Jedi is going to wake up, pick up the lightsaber he's had for 20 years, ask "So, how many blades will you have today?" and turn it on to find out. It may just be that specializations in lightsaber makes them too cheap to improve for the reliability of the benefit.
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, that's how I see it: the weapon is unique, so in order to use it at all you need to have a completely separate skill. I would go the same route for all significant variations on the lightsaber. For example, I'd let Yoda use the basic lightsaber skill to swing his little lightsaber, but not to swing a double bladed lightsaber/lightwhip/lightaxe/lightmace/lightlance etc. |
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Well, that's how I see it: the weapon is unique, so in order to use it at all you need to have a completely separate skill. I would go the same route for all significant variations on the lightsaber. For example, I'd let Yoda use the basic lightsaber skill to swing his little lightsaber, but not to swing a double bladed lightsaber/lightwhip/lightaxe/lightmace/lightlance etc. |
That is probably the route I'd take too after all if a guy wielding a regular lightsaber can't take the specialization Lightsaber like so:
Lightsaber 4D
(s)Lightsaber 5D
Then it doesn't make sense to me that someone wielding a Lightstaff can take the specialization Lightstaff:
Lightsaber 4D
(s)Lightstaff 5D
It just seems to punish those choosing to stick with the classics.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16345
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Well, that's how I see it: the weapon is unique, so in order to use it at all you need to have a completely separate skill. I would go the same route for all significant variations on the lightsaber. For example, I'd let Yoda use the basic lightsaber skill to swing his little lightsaber, but not to swing a double bladed lightsaber/lightwhip/lightaxe/lightmace/lightlance etc. |
That makes no sense to me. After all, Melee Combat covers everything from swords and knives to whips and spears. If we took the same perspective here, we would need unique skills for each individual type or class of melee weapon, or we could simply let the melee combatant specialize in one form of combat or another. A lightstaff may be somewhat different in design from a lightsaber (mostly in the length of the hilt and the limitations and advantages allowed by the extra blade), but it is still fundamentally a lightsaber. The traits that make a lightsaber require a separate skill are still present in a lightstaff; it is simply a variation on a standard lightsaber.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | That makes no sense to me. After all, Melee Combat covers everything from swords and knives to whips and spears. If we took the same perspective here, we would need unique skills for each individual type or class of melee weapon, or we could simply let the melee combatant specialize in one form of combat or another. A lightstaff may be somewhat different in design from a lightsaber (mostly in the length of the hilt and the limitations and advantages allowed by the extra blade), but it is still fundamentally a lightsaber. The traits that make a lightsaber require a separate skill are still present in a lightstaff; it is simply a variation on a standard lightsaber. |
But the question is if someone has the skill Lightsaber can they then have the speciality lightsaber to represent they are more skilled with a standard lightsaber than any of the other varients out there?
If not then allowing things like lightstaff to be a speciality disadvantages those who choose to use a standard lightsaber.
Additionally Melee combat covers a wide range of weapons because you must also get the skill melee parry to defend with those same weapons. Lightsaber allows for attack and defence so unless you remove the melee parry/brawling parry skills allowing specalizations of the lightsaber skill diminishes those skills as well.
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
That makes no sense to me. After all, Melee Combat covers everything from swords and knives to whips and spears. If we took the same perspective here, we would need unique skills for each individual type or class of melee weapon, or we could simply let the melee combatant specialize in one form of combat or another. A lightstaff may be somewhat different in design from a lightsaber (mostly in the length of the hilt and the limitations and advantages allowed by the extra blade), but it is still fundamentally a lightsaber. The traits that make a lightsaber require a separate skill are still present in a lightstaff; it is simply a variation on a standard lightsaber. |
My point was that a lightsaber is more or less an "exotic weapon" in such a way that using one defies the normal rules of melee combat (the blade has no weight, it passes through other things very easily, it repels blaster bolts etc). The user's physical effort does not translate into impact force so using a lightsaber is distinctly unlike "standard" (even if rare or "exotic") melee weapons.
In the case of a double lightsaber having the same considerations as a normal lightsaber, I agree. However, a double lightsaber is (supposed to be) even more special than a regular lightsaber. Paying cheaper costs to master it doesn't make sense to me, which is why I would make it a separate skill (to reflect its specialness). If a standard lightsaber requires its own skill because it is so much different from other weapons, then a one-off or otherwise unique lightsaber (in my opinion) should require yet another skill (mostly because the stabdard lightsaber skill is already a specialization to begin with... at least as far as the CP cost is concerned relative to melee combat/melee parry).
| Esoomian wrote: |
But the question is if someone has the skill Lightsaber can they then have the speciality lightsaber to represent they are more skilled with a standard lightsaber than any of the other varients out there?
If not then allowing things like lightstaff to be a speciality disadvantages those who choose to use a standard lightsaber.
Additionally Melee combat covers a wide range of weapons because you must also get the skill melee parry to defend with those same weapons. Lightsaber allows for attack and defence so unless you remove the melee parry/brawling parry skills allowing specalizations of the lightsaber skill diminishes those skills as well. |
^This.^
Specializing in Lightsaber: Lightsaber would be like specializing in Melee Combat: Attack and Melee Parry: Parry. Therefore, if you CAN'T specialize in Lightsaber: Lightsaber, why should you be able to specialize in Lightsaber: Double Bladed? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16345
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Who says you can't? After all, with Melee Combat, a character would be just as adept with a katana or a bullwhip as they would be with a manrikigusari or a pair of kerambits, all of which require their own own specific combat styles. There is no reason that the skill Lightsaber can't be an umbrella skill for all the various variants of lightsabers that have come into existence over the years, courtesy of the EU. If you were to take Melee Combat and break it up into the various constituent subgroups of weapon types that make up Melee Combat (Sword, Polearm, Blunt, Knife, Chain, etc.) then I could see it, but not just because a lightstaff is wielded differently from a lightsaber. The primary things that set lightsabers apart skill-wise from other melee weapons are the extreme cutting ability and the weightlessness and oscillation effect of the blade, both of which are also found in the lightstaff.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16345
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | But the question is if someone has the skill Lightsaber can they then have the speciality lightsaber to represent they are more skilled with a standard lightsaber than any of the other varients out there?
If not then allowing things like lightstaff to be a speciality disadvantages those who choose to use a standard lightsaber. |
It offers the same advantages and disadvantages as any other character specializing. A character trained specifically in Lightsaber will have knowledge in how to operate all the various lightsaber variants, but will have no particular advantage of one type over another. This is just like a character specializing in Melee Combat or Blaster will have the same general skill for all weapon types covered under those skill headings, even weapons he has never seen before. It sounds ridiculous, but there it is. My sole objection is not that a rule making Lightstaff a separate skill isn't realistic, merely that to impose this rule solely on lightsaber adepts while ignoring the fact that Melee Combat is deserving of a similar treatment is an unfair double standard.
If you want to split all the various melee forms up into their own specific skill sets, you are more than welcome to do so. Speaking for myself, for simplicity's sake, I'm going to stick with the existing Dexterity skills and allow Jedi to specialize in specific lightsaber variants (including standard lightsaber) if they so choose.
| Quote: | | Additionally Melee combat covers a wide range of weapons because you must also get the skill melee parry to defend with those same weapons. Lightsaber allows for attack and defence so unless you remove the melee parry/brawling parry skills allowing specalizations of the lightsaber skill diminishes those skills as well. |
But Melee Parry and Melee Combat do not even begin to cover the wide variety of skills covered by the plethora of available weapon types. There are half a dozen general categories that I could list off the top of my head: swords, spears/polearms, short-blades, blunt weapons, chain/rope weapons, not to mention the various exotic types that do not easily fit into any category.
In essence, making Lightsaber, Lightfoil, Lightstaff and all the other variants into individual skills is enforcing two separate and unequal rules, weighted heavily and unfairly in favor of Melee Weapons.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Who says you can't? After all, with Melee Combat, a character would be just as adept with a katana or a bullwhip as they would be with a manrikigusari or a pair of kerambits, all of which require their own own specific combat styles. There is no reason that the skill Lightsaber can't be an umbrella skill for all the various variants of lightsabers that have come into existence over the years, courtesy of the EU. If you were to take Melee Combat and break it up into the various constituent subgroups of weapon types that make up Melee Combat (Sword, Polearm, Blunt, Knife, Chain, etc.) then I could see it, but not just because a lightstaff is wielded differently from a lightsaber. The primary things that set lightsabers apart skill-wise from other melee weapons are the extreme cutting ability and the weightlessness and oscillation effect of the blade, both of which are also found in the lightstaff. |
Now we're talking. If specialization in the basic lightsaber is allowed, then I would also agree that specialization of the double bladed lightsaber is allowed. To me, the lightsaber is already a "specialization" in that it costs half the character points to raise compared to the combo of melee combat and melee parry. That is why I would disallow specializations of specific lightsabers and instead treat each one as it's own skill. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think that some of the problem here is that specializing in Lightsaber:Single blade is like specializing in Firearms:ballistic. It isn't really a specialization (because it's not special.)
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