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Mikael Hasselstein
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 Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:18 pm Post subject: Matrices/Maps |
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So, I took receipt of my new (well, used, old and beat up) copy of Tramp Freighters and it has a distance matrix of systems in the Minos Cluster.
Now, let me point out that that matrix is rather bizarre, because the distances don't make any sense. Some distances directly between systems are greater than if you pop on through some other systems.
But that is completely aside from my purpose.
I was wondering if there are other such gems - distance matrices - in any of the other published works that I may not be aware of. Seeing as my in-print collection is rather slim, the universe of what I am not aware of is rather vast. Also, what about charts/maps? I know about the ones in the Elrood books and the DarkStryder campaign.
Do you know of any others? |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Its because some hyperspace routes are faster. So, in effect, going a longer distance might save you time.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Its because some hyperspace routes are faster. So, in effect, going a longer distance might save you time. |
But the distances are given in hours of travel. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Its because some hyperspace routes are faster. So, in effect, going a longer distance might save you time. |
But the distances are given in hours of travel. |
Exactly.
Flying from A-B-C really fast might go faster because youre using a really fast hyperspace route then plodding through that gas cloud directly between A to C.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Its because some hyperspace routes are faster. So, in effect, going a longer distance might save you time. |
But the distances are given in hours of travel. |
Exactly.
Flying from A-B-C really fast might go faster because youre using a really fast hyperspace route then plodding through that gas cloud directly between A to C. |
No, not exactly.
If it takes (10+20) 30 hours to get from A->B->C, then it does not stand to reason that it should be listed that it takes 50 hours to go directly from A->C. The only time when the information of 50 hours is relevant is if there is an Interdictor cruiser between A and B or B and C.
Sure, it is possible that there is an interdictor cruiser there, but if the normal route from A to C goes through B, then there probably would not be a route from A directly to C in the first place. Since usually people are just trying to get from A to C as quickly as possible, it's more useful to just say A->C takes 30 hours, rather than having to figure that out by drawing a network. |
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jmanski
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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But it does take 50 hours to go from A to C. Without the ABC shortcut you are taking a different route. Going from A to B to C is different than A to C. Bypassing B may be a neccessity at some point.
When envisioning hyperspace routes I liken them to highways. You may be able to take a direct route over slower highways that will take you longer, or you may be able to take a longer route on an interstate that will get you there faster.
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Grimace
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Are you talking about maps in the WEG material that have star charts with hyperspace times listed on them? If so, there are the following to choose from:
Secrets of the Sisar Run - The Sisar Run area
Twin Stars of Kira - The Kira Run area
The Kathol Outback - The Kathol Sector outback area
Darkstryder Campaign - Kathol Sector front portion
Lords of Expanse Tapani Sector players Guide - the Tapani Sector
Flashpoint! Brak Sector - the Brak Sector (the layout for this map is a little different than the other maps)
Tramp Freighters (as you know) - Minos Cluster
The Far Orbit Project - the Ringali Shell (sections of Darpa Sector and Bormea Sector)
Operation: Elrood (as you know) - Elrood Sector
That's about all I could find. I think there might be one or two more, but I couldn't find them on cursory looks. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | But it does take 50 hours to go from A to C. Without the ABC shortcut you are taking a different route. Going from A to B to C is different than A to C. Bypassing B may be a neccessity at some point.
When envisioning hyperspace routes I liken them to highways. You may be able to take a direct route over slower highways that will take you longer, or you may be able to take a longer route on an interstate that will get you there faster. |
I think the point is being misunderstood. What is the table for? It is to tell you how long it takes to go from point A to point C. If a particular route (the direct one) takes twice as long as the route through point B, why should the direct route be mentioned? Who is going to take that route when A->B->C is available, but obscured by the nature of the matrix table?
Yes, bypassing B may be a necessity at come point, but usually it is not a necessity. When you're trying to look up how long it takes to get from point A to point C, are you going to think of looking for the A->B->C route as an alternative?
I mean, we're not talking small amounts of time here. Look at the matrix that I am talking about:
If you want to go from Mestra to Travnin, the direct route is 40 hours. By way of Shesharile you're there in 20 hours. That's a 20-hour difference, but it's not readily apparent in the table. That's the problem! It's also not the only example. I ran it through a network program yesteday, and found this data replete with such redundancies. In this matrix it rarely takes you more than 50 hours to get from anywhere to anywhere else, but you wouldn't know it by looking at the numbers.
Now, what is this table for - the usual times when people what to get to somewhere fast without having to spend interminable time figuring out how that is to be done - or the unusual time when there's an Interdictor cruiser in the neighborhood? |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | Are you talking about maps in the WEG material that have star charts with hyperspace times listed on them? If so, there are the following to choose from:
Secrets of the Sisar Run - The Sisar Run area
Twin Stars of Kira - The Kira Run area
The Kathol Outback - The Kathol Sector outback area
Darkstryder Campaign - Kathol Sector front portion
Lords of Expanse Tapani Sector players Guide - the Tapani Sector
Flashpoint! Brak Sector - the Brak Sector (the layout for this map is a little different than the other maps)
Tramp Freighters (as you know) - Minos Cluster
The Far Orbit Project - the Ringali Shell (sections of Darpa Sector and Bormea Sector)
Operation: Elrood (as you know) - Elrood Sector
That's about all I could find. I think there might be one or two more, but I couldn't find them on cursory looks. |
Yes, those are what I am interested in. Thank you much, I shall be on the lookout for them. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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For all we know, in hyperspace, the shortest distance between two points may not be a straight line.
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Matrices/Maps |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
Now, let me point out that that matrix is rather bizarre, because the distances don't make any sense. Some distances directly between systems are greater than if you pop on through some other systems.
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Maybe it's simply because the guy who wrote the matrix was lazy, or had some other thing that wasn't meeting a deadline?
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | For all we know, in hyperspace, the shortest distance between two points may not be a straight line. |
I'm confident that you are correct. My point is only that the path that takes the least amount of time is the path that takes the least amount of time, even if there's another system along the way.
| Random Numbers wrote: | | Maybe it's simply because the guy who wrote the matrix was lazy, or had some other thing that wasn't meeting a deadline? |
That's what I think is the case too. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | For all we know, in hyperspace, the shortest distance between two points may not be a straight line. |
I'm confident that you are correct. My point is only that the path that takes the least amount of time is the path that takes the least amount of time, even if there's another system along the way. |
Ohh, I get it. I think you're mistaking the meaning of the table for something else. It seems to me that the table is not a list of fastest routes, but fastest direct routes. Kind of like how it may be faster to make a journey from the west slope of a mountain to the east slope of the mountain via the top of the mountain, rather than by tunneling straight through.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | For all we know, in hyperspace, the shortest distance between two points may not be a straight line. |
I'm confident that you are correct. My point is only that the path that takes the least amount of time is the path that takes the least amount of time, even if there's another system along the way. |
Ohh, I get it. I think you're mistaking the meaning of the table for something else. It seems to me that the table is not a list of fastest routes, but fastest direct routes. Kind of like how it may be faster to make a journey from the west slope of a mountain to the east slope of the mountain via the top of the mountain, rather than by tunneling straight through. |
Okay, but if you are correct, and the 'meaning' of the table is direct routes, then what is the 'point' of the table?
Let me put it another way; beyond the possibility that an Interdictor cruiser just happens to be at point B, why would any user of that table be more interested in a direct route rather than the quickest route? Again many of the indirect routes are half the travel time of the direct route. What's the point in not making the fastest routes clearer? |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: |
Ohh, I get it. I think you're mistaking the meaning of the table for something else. It seems to me that the table is not a list of fastest routes, but fastest direct routes. Kind of like how it may be faster to make a journey from the west slope of a mountain to the east slope of the mountain via the top of the mountain, rather than by tunneling straight through. |
Okay, but if you are correct, and the 'meaning' of the table is direct routes, then what is the 'point' of the table?
Let me put it another way; beyond the possibility that an Interdictor cruiser just happens to be at point B, why would any user of that table be more interested in a direct route rather than the quickest route? Again many of the indirect routes are half the travel time of the direct route. What's the point in not making the fastest routes clearer? |
To avoid Imperial entanglements? I view it as a safety measure that you must drop out of hyperspace and align with a nav beacon, or at least get your bearings, every time you hit another system on the route. (Unless you have a navigational computer bypass.) This makes the direct route more secretive, even though it takes longer. It also reduces the chances of piracy.
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